1 00:00:13,509 --> 00:00:09,589 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:16,230 --> 00:00:13,519 from australia for science and reason 3 00:00:20,790 --> 00:00:16,240 here your hosts richard saunders and 4 00:00:25,189 --> 00:00:23,109 richard good evening good morning and 5 00:00:26,870 --> 00:00:25,199 good night all at once 6 00:00:28,630 --> 00:00:26,880 all at once around the globe here in the 7 00:00:30,630 --> 00:00:28,640 skeptic zone good to have you back on 8 00:00:32,709 --> 00:00:30,640 the zone i know it's been a while i've 9 00:00:35,190 --> 00:00:32,719 had a bit of a hiatus yeah did you yeah 10 00:00:36,870 --> 00:00:35,200 yeah the operations all was a success 11 00:00:39,110 --> 00:00:36,880 and uh and i'm back and it's happy new 12 00:00:40,549 --> 00:00:39,120 year thank you happy new year to you yes 13 00:00:42,470 --> 00:00:40,559 we last few weeks have been the 14 00:00:47,670 --> 00:00:42,480 skeptic's own sort of winter and summer 15 00:00:51,510 --> 00:00:49,029 i've been listening i've been tuning in 16 00:00:54,869 --> 00:00:51,520 with my itunes on my ipod it's been 17 00:00:56,869 --> 00:00:54,879 wonderful i don't doubt it 18 00:00:58,389 --> 00:00:56,879 i spent some time in the states oh you 19 00:01:00,389 --> 00:00:58,399 did so that's what you spent like chris 20 00:01:02,310 --> 00:01:00,399 the silly season yeah silly season yeah 21 00:01:04,789 --> 00:01:02,320 christmas new year in uh 22 00:01:06,310 --> 00:01:04,799 in northern california around uh san 23 00:01:08,310 --> 00:01:06,320 francisco and i spent a little bit of 24 00:01:09,830 --> 00:01:08,320 time down past los angeles and the 25 00:01:11,350 --> 00:01:09,840 orange county then did you catch up with 26 00:01:13,270 --> 00:01:11,360 any of our listeners 27 00:01:16,149 --> 00:01:13,280 i did 28 00:01:18,630 --> 00:01:16,159 i went to skeptics in the pub in the oc 29 00:01:20,870 --> 00:01:18,640 oh really i did a newport beach 30 00:01:22,469 --> 00:01:20,880 fantastic and there's a little video you 31 00:01:24,950 --> 00:01:22,479 can watch if you go to my youtube 32 00:01:26,870 --> 00:01:24,960 channel which is skeptic zone podcast 33 00:01:28,950 --> 00:01:26,880 yes yes actually there are two videos on 34 00:01:31,830 --> 00:01:28,960 there from skeptics in the oc one me and 35 00:01:34,310 --> 00:01:31,840 brian dunning from skeptoid juggling ah 36 00:01:36,870 --> 00:01:34,320 really yeah why not and the other one is 37 00:01:38,390 --> 00:01:36,880 me demonstrating the amazing power of 38 00:01:41,830 --> 00:01:38,400 kinesiology 39 00:01:43,190 --> 00:01:41,840 convinced i've actually put an order in 40 00:01:45,429 --> 00:01:43,200 but haven't you yeah but the paypal 41 00:01:47,350 --> 00:01:45,439 account's not working yet 42 00:01:49,590 --> 00:01:47,360 so did you trudge through any snow there 43 00:01:51,990 --> 00:01:49,600 was it was what was it no no what no 44 00:01:53,350 --> 00:01:52,000 snow but oh it was so nice to escape the 45 00:01:55,749 --> 00:01:53,360 sydney 46 00:01:57,670 --> 00:01:55,759 heat it's really wow uh any of the 47 00:01:59,670 --> 00:01:57,680 climate change skeptics out there uh 48 00:02:02,630 --> 00:01:59,680 it's it's a funny funny summer here 49 00:02:05,350 --> 00:02:02,640 we've had we it goes down to 21 22 and 50 00:02:07,350 --> 00:02:05,360 then it peaks at like 35 36 from day to 51 00:02:09,270 --> 00:02:07,360 day when we recorded the think tank 52 00:02:12,070 --> 00:02:09,280 which we'll be on later in the show it 53 00:02:13,830 --> 00:02:12,080 was hot that day hot ass hot ass hot ass 54 00:02:15,830 --> 00:02:13,840 yeah today's not too bad it's a bit 55 00:02:17,270 --> 00:02:15,840 muggy isn't it it's it's a bit muggy but 56 00:02:18,150 --> 00:02:17,280 uh not that anyone would be feeling that 57 00:02:19,830 --> 00:02:18,160 if you're listening to us in the 58 00:02:21,270 --> 00:02:19,840 northern hemisphere yeah they're snowed 59 00:02:23,430 --> 00:02:21,280 under i think yeah 60 00:02:24,630 --> 00:02:23,440 so what do we i mean it's a new year and 61 00:02:26,309 --> 00:02:24,640 i mean for me it's a new year you've 62 00:02:28,270 --> 00:02:26,319 been going the whole time but what have 63 00:02:30,070 --> 00:02:28,280 we got planned for the year 64 00:02:31,910 --> 00:02:30,080 unbelievable things 65 00:02:34,229 --> 00:02:31,920 lots more interviews lots more on the 66 00:02:36,550 --> 00:02:34,239 scene reporting some yeah investigations 67 00:02:38,470 --> 00:02:36,560 we're going to bust a few people 68 00:02:40,309 --> 00:02:38,480 more reports from america from the 69 00:02:42,790 --> 00:02:40,319 conventions yeah it's all happening and 70 00:02:45,030 --> 00:02:42,800 we've got a massive one in uh november 71 00:02:47,030 --> 00:02:45,040 here so that i mean not the annual 72 00:02:49,030 --> 00:02:47,040 flight yeah in australia 73 00:02:51,350 --> 00:02:49,040 and i and actually i've been speaking to 74 00:02:52,949 --> 00:02:51,360 my um my you know alter ego miss dr 75 00:02:54,550 --> 00:02:52,959 stephen soyker oh yeah and i believe 76 00:02:56,710 --> 00:02:54,560 he's got a few new uh scientific 77 00:02:58,550 --> 00:02:56,720 discoveries coming excellent in this 78 00:03:00,150 --> 00:02:58,560 little season so absolutely look forward 79 00:03:01,830 --> 00:03:00,160 to that it's it's going to be a 80 00:03:06,070 --> 00:03:01,840 phenomenon people are still raving about 81 00:03:09,830 --> 00:03:07,670 so yeah what's up what's up for this a 82 00:03:11,750 --> 00:03:09,840 particular individual episode well let's 83 00:03:14,949 --> 00:03:11,760 kick off the uh 84 00:03:16,710 --> 00:03:14,959 this episode with an interview that dr h 85 00:03:18,550 --> 00:03:16,720 and i did with a guy called tim bernero 86 00:03:21,509 --> 00:03:18,560 now a lot of listeners in australia will 87 00:03:23,670 --> 00:03:21,519 know the name tim was on big brother yes 88 00:03:25,190 --> 00:03:23,680 he was did he win or come second same 89 00:03:27,110 --> 00:03:25,200 second yeah 90 00:03:30,550 --> 00:03:27,120 he's a bit of a legend he's pretty cool 91 00:03:32,710 --> 00:03:30,560 he's also a writer for the chaser 92 00:03:33,990 --> 00:03:32,720 i bet you the international listeners 93 00:03:35,990 --> 00:03:34,000 know the chaser they would have heard of 94 00:03:37,830 --> 00:03:36,000 that big guy they can google apec opec 95 00:03:40,070 --> 00:03:37,840 things yeah that's right these guys are 96 00:03:42,630 --> 00:03:40,080 on our national broadcaster here they do 97 00:03:44,630 --> 00:03:42,640 all sorts of pranks and silly being 98 00:03:46,470 --> 00:03:44,640 getting out of the big big 99 00:03:47,830 --> 00:03:46,480 convention um so that's going to be 100 00:03:50,869 --> 00:03:47,840 that's interesting and he's into 101 00:03:52,470 --> 00:03:50,879 investigating cults and religions 102 00:03:54,149 --> 00:03:52,480 there's a few of those around 103 00:03:55,990 --> 00:03:54,159 certainly is 104 00:03:59,589 --> 00:03:56,000 and that'll be followed by 105 00:04:02,470 --> 00:03:59,599 uh kylie sturges with her token skeptic 106 00:04:04,149 --> 00:04:02,480 round up of news and events oh that's 107 00:04:05,429 --> 00:04:04,159 good and uh and the old skeptics in the 108 00:04:07,670 --> 00:04:05,439 party is coming up 109 00:04:08,470 --> 00:04:07,680 well that's the the think tank of course 110 00:04:11,990 --> 00:04:08,480 yes 111 00:04:14,550 --> 00:04:12,000 followed by the good old think tank 112 00:04:17,189 --> 00:04:14,560 where it's uh this week dr raichi diane 113 00:04:18,629 --> 00:04:17,199 verstappen joe benamu iran segev and 114 00:04:20,710 --> 00:04:18,639 myself and in fact we're doing another 115 00:04:22,469 --> 00:04:20,720 one in a couple of weeks stefan and i 116 00:04:23,189 --> 00:04:22,479 hope you can come along i am going to be 117 00:04:25,110 --> 00:04:23,199 there 118 00:04:26,550 --> 00:04:25,120 all this internationalism all those 119 00:04:29,430 --> 00:04:26,560 lists of names you rattle off there was 120 00:04:30,230 --> 00:04:29,440 almost a tongue twister it was actually 121 00:04:32,469 --> 00:04:30,240 just 122 00:04:33,990 --> 00:04:32,479 now i come to think about it it is 123 00:04:35,749 --> 00:04:34,000 now but i will be seeing you at the uh 124 00:04:37,749 --> 00:04:35,759 the think tank in uh in a couple weeks 125 00:04:39,909 --> 00:04:37,759 that will be really cool and just 126 00:04:41,749 --> 00:04:39,919 in case i forget to mention it or the 127 00:04:43,590 --> 00:04:41,759 end of the show next week we do have a 128 00:04:46,629 --> 00:04:43,600 special think tank which is actually a 129 00:04:48,950 --> 00:04:46,639 think tub oh really what you're going to 130 00:04:50,629 --> 00:04:48,960 see here in a spa we're in a hot tub oh 131 00:04:52,390 --> 00:04:50,639 and look out for that next week there's 132 00:04:54,310 --> 00:04:52,400 a think tank called the think tub oh 133 00:04:55,830 --> 00:04:54,320 jeez now before we 134 00:04:58,070 --> 00:04:55,840 before we get into the show a few little 135 00:05:00,550 --> 00:04:58,080 um notes worthy of your attention 136 00:05:04,230 --> 00:05:00,560 listeners james randy has just posted up 137 00:05:07,029 --> 00:05:04,240 a new video about his uh ordeal with 138 00:05:09,310 --> 00:05:07,039 chemotherapy oh really and how well he's 139 00:05:12,230 --> 00:05:09,320 done with it and it's a really 140 00:05:14,469 --> 00:05:12,240 inspirational wonderful video so head to 141 00:05:17,270 --> 00:05:14,479 randy.org and check it out 142 00:05:19,830 --> 00:05:17,280 and there was no no reiki sort of uh 143 00:05:21,430 --> 00:05:19,840 reiki enhanced chemotherapy just 144 00:05:25,830 --> 00:05:21,440 straight out chemo i think he just 145 00:05:29,350 --> 00:05:27,510 that's phenomenal well look i'm going to 146 00:05:31,110 --> 00:05:29,360 go and watch it right now it's it's 147 00:05:32,230 --> 00:05:31,120 pretty good before you watch it don't 148 00:05:36,070 --> 00:05:32,240 watch it 149 00:05:37,670 --> 00:05:36,080 just a quick a quick plea if you enjoy 150 00:05:39,590 --> 00:05:37,680 the show listeners and i really hope you 151 00:05:42,070 --> 00:05:39,600 do steph and i hope you enjoy the show 152 00:05:45,189 --> 00:05:42,080 there's a pay pal button on our website 153 00:05:49,350 --> 00:05:46,950 helps us do the show because we're all 154 00:05:51,270 --> 00:05:49,360 volunteers yeah that is true that's true 155 00:05:53,590 --> 00:05:51,280 we've got kylie sturgis dr rachie and 156 00:05:56,710 --> 00:05:53,600 all the other reporters joe iran 157 00:05:59,029 --> 00:05:56,720 working very hard yeah um and their bus 158 00:06:01,029 --> 00:05:59,039 fares you know the bus fares buzzfeed in 159 00:06:03,029 --> 00:06:01,039 sydney are very expensive very expensive 160 00:06:05,270 --> 00:06:03,039 so that anything can help so if you feel 161 00:06:08,150 --> 00:06:05,280 like helping the skeptics own all 162 00:06:09,990 --> 00:06:08,160 donations much appreciated but but let's 163 00:06:12,230 --> 00:06:10,000 not talk about that forget it let's just 164 00:06:25,029 --> 00:06:12,240 move on let's do the show do it all 165 00:06:29,590 --> 00:06:27,510 tim branero is a journalist and writer 166 00:06:31,029 --> 00:06:29,600 from sydney australia 167 00:06:33,590 --> 00:06:31,039 and if you think his name sounds 168 00:06:35,990 --> 00:06:33,600 familiar you might remember him from big 169 00:06:38,070 --> 00:06:36,000 brother series 2 in australia which 170 00:06:40,230 --> 00:06:38,080 aired in 2005 171 00:06:42,390 --> 00:06:40,240 but as you'll find from this interview 172 00:06:44,710 --> 00:06:42,400 there is much more to tim bernero than 173 00:06:46,469 --> 00:06:44,720 just looking pretty on big brother 174 00:06:48,550 --> 00:06:46,479 tim has long been a blogger at the 175 00:06:50,950 --> 00:06:48,560 chaser website where he has written 176 00:06:52,070 --> 00:06:50,960 extensive pieces about cults and 177 00:06:53,830 --> 00:06:52,080 religion 178 00:06:57,189 --> 00:06:53,840 tim has investigated the likes of the 179 00:06:59,430 --> 00:06:57,199 hillsong church scientology and cults 180 00:07:01,670 --> 00:06:59,440 such as freedom force 181 00:07:06,950 --> 00:07:01,680 richard and i met up with tim to have a 182 00:07:11,589 --> 00:07:09,189 so i'm here with tim bernero hello tim 183 00:07:13,029 --> 00:07:11,599 welcome to this hi hi hi 184 00:07:14,790 --> 00:07:13,039 and uh richard's here with me as well 185 00:07:17,029 --> 00:07:14,800 hello hello dr 186 00:07:19,589 --> 00:07:17,039 and uh we've come to talk to tim today 187 00:07:22,390 --> 00:07:19,599 in a share house tim and i thought you'd 188 00:07:24,309 --> 00:07:22,400 given up share housing about all three 189 00:07:25,990 --> 00:07:24,319 years ago didn't you write a blog about 190 00:07:27,510 --> 00:07:26,000 no more share housing well this is the 191 00:07:28,950 --> 00:07:27,520 thing when you write for the chaser or 192 00:07:30,950 --> 00:07:28,960 anywhere where you're blogging you come 193 00:07:32,629 --> 00:07:30,960 up with the idea and and you go that's a 194 00:07:33,990 --> 00:07:32,639 good idea and you write it up and 195 00:07:35,510 --> 00:07:34,000 sometimes it's not true i know that's 196 00:07:36,629 --> 00:07:35,520 going to surprise you that you know you 197 00:07:38,710 --> 00:07:36,639 get carried away with yourself in the 198 00:07:39,990 --> 00:07:38,720 media but i was very sick of my 199 00:07:41,670 --> 00:07:40,000 housemates and i could think of all the 200 00:07:42,790 --> 00:07:41,680 reasons to leave but then of course you 201 00:07:44,790 --> 00:07:42,800 know there are a whole lot of other 202 00:07:47,430 --> 00:07:44,800 reasons to stay you know the warm cups 203 00:07:49,510 --> 00:07:47,440 of nest cafe at 11 o'clock when you're 204 00:07:51,029 --> 00:07:49,520 both yakking away and you it you know 205 00:07:52,469 --> 00:07:51,039 it's it's love when you get a bit sick 206 00:07:53,670 --> 00:07:52,479 or something it's lovely to have to be 207 00:07:55,589 --> 00:07:53,680 around people especially with their 208 00:07:57,270 --> 00:07:55,599 friends and 209 00:07:59,029 --> 00:07:57,280 and also there's an economic factor 210 00:08:01,110 --> 00:07:59,039 there as well because you know there's 211 00:08:03,110 --> 00:08:01,120 no cameras in the walls exactly there's 212 00:08:04,469 --> 00:08:03,120 no cameras in the walls but uh no i do 213 00:08:05,270 --> 00:08:04,479 like sharehousing because i like people 214 00:08:07,350 --> 00:08:05,280 you know 215 00:08:09,350 --> 00:08:07,360 so tim i should introduce you as a 216 00:08:11,350 --> 00:08:09,360 journalist by trade but many of our 217 00:08:13,589 --> 00:08:11,360 australian listeners would know you from 218 00:08:14,869 --> 00:08:13,599 big brother series 5 where you came 219 00:08:16,950 --> 00:08:14,879 runner up 220 00:08:18,629 --> 00:08:16,960 and you were pretty popular actually 221 00:08:21,589 --> 00:08:18,639 throughout that series most people found 222 00:08:23,189 --> 00:08:21,599 you intriguing because you were rare in 223 00:08:25,270 --> 00:08:23,199 the sense that you were more than just 224 00:08:27,189 --> 00:08:25,280 do i look hot in here 225 00:08:28,950 --> 00:08:27,199 in the house so can you tell us a little 226 00:08:30,790 --> 00:08:28,960 bit about that experience because i 227 00:08:31,990 --> 00:08:30,800 believe the reason you came to be on big 228 00:08:34,230 --> 00:08:32,000 brother has something to do with the 229 00:08:35,750 --> 00:08:34,240 chaser is that right well i'd i'd 230 00:08:38,870 --> 00:08:35,760 written for the chaser for many years 231 00:08:43,029 --> 00:08:38,880 before um going on big brother and i was 232 00:08:44,949 --> 00:08:43,039 um when i began the process 233 00:08:46,630 --> 00:08:44,959 the auditions i mean it's it's quite an 234 00:08:49,269 --> 00:08:46,640 incredible process before those reality 235 00:08:51,750 --> 00:08:49,279 tv shows the the audition after audition 236 00:08:53,750 --> 00:08:51,760 the questionnaires the medicals i mean 237 00:08:55,269 --> 00:08:53,760 it just goes on forever but i did a lot 238 00:08:57,110 --> 00:08:55,279 of that preparation with ches luchadello 239 00:08:59,350 --> 00:08:57,120 from the chaser and he helped me out 240 00:09:00,710 --> 00:08:59,360 look for me i'd watch this show which 241 00:09:02,949 --> 00:09:00,720 let's face it no matter where it is in 242 00:09:04,790 --> 00:09:02,959 the world is is pretty crass and banal 243 00:09:05,990 --> 00:09:04,800 and i thought well you actually can't 244 00:09:07,030 --> 00:09:06,000 whinge about something like this unless 245 00:09:09,430 --> 00:09:07,040 you're prepared to actually have a crack 246 00:09:10,710 --> 00:09:09,440 at it yourself so as a kind of 247 00:09:13,190 --> 00:09:10,720 hand-wringing 248 00:09:14,790 --> 00:09:13,200 thinking lefty from newtown i thought 249 00:09:16,470 --> 00:09:14,800 this is something that we don't see in 250 00:09:17,829 --> 00:09:16,480 this show i've always encouraged people 251 00:09:20,389 --> 00:09:17,839 who are a little bit different or whose 252 00:09:22,310 --> 00:09:20,399 version of australian youth is not 253 00:09:24,550 --> 00:09:22,320 represented in popular culture or 254 00:09:26,070 --> 00:09:24,560 certainly on that show to go 255 00:09:28,710 --> 00:09:26,080 and represent it whether you're a hill 256 00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:28,720 songer whether you're a muslim 257 00:09:33,590 --> 00:09:30,880 you know activists from lacamba whether 258 00:09:35,350 --> 00:09:33,600 you're a you know a hippie go and have a 259 00:09:37,509 --> 00:09:35,360 crack at it because to me it's an 260 00:09:38,630 --> 00:09:37,519 incredible soapbox the how government 261 00:09:40,470 --> 00:09:38,640 very conservative government was in 262 00:09:42,070 --> 00:09:40,480 power at the time and it was about being 263 00:09:44,389 --> 00:09:42,080 able to reach into a demographic of 264 00:09:46,630 --> 00:09:44,399 people and an age group of people who 265 00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:46,640 are actually not well served by other 266 00:09:49,670 --> 00:09:48,160 parts of the media so what i mean is i 267 00:09:51,750 --> 00:09:49,680 consume the city morning herald i listen 268 00:09:53,350 --> 00:09:51,760 to radio national but if you actually 269 00:09:54,870 --> 00:09:53,360 want to speak to the people you're not 270 00:09:55,990 --> 00:09:54,880 going to get target them you're going to 271 00:09:58,870 --> 00:09:56,000 target 272 00:10:00,550 --> 00:09:58,880 commercial radio channel 10 news 273 00:10:02,230 --> 00:10:00,560 that's and so if you want to and my 274 00:10:03,990 --> 00:10:02,240 message was one basically a left-wing 275 00:10:05,350 --> 00:10:04,000 message i suppose and i worked in the 276 00:10:07,509 --> 00:10:05,360 unions at the time and i'm very i 277 00:10:09,269 --> 00:10:07,519 support a lot of those causes classic 278 00:10:11,990 --> 00:10:09,279 left causes it was about actually having 279 00:10:13,670 --> 00:10:12,000 that soapbox there on a personal level i 280 00:10:15,350 --> 00:10:13,680 know the way the media works i work in 281 00:10:17,350 --> 00:10:15,360 the media i thought maybe if i had a 282 00:10:19,990 --> 00:10:17,360 profile through this show i could use 283 00:10:21,350 --> 00:10:20,000 that to further myself in the media 284 00:10:23,110 --> 00:10:21,360 knowing how celebrity seems to be more 285 00:10:24,069 --> 00:10:23,120 important than substance in this day and 286 00:10:25,670 --> 00:10:24,079 age 287 00:10:27,750 --> 00:10:25,680 so there was a range of reasons also i 288 00:10:29,670 --> 00:10:27,760 just had studied anthropology and relish 289 00:10:31,269 --> 00:10:29,680 the opportunity to challenge three or 290 00:10:34,230 --> 00:10:31,279 four hundred people who will be there to 291 00:10:36,069 --> 00:10:34,240 manipulate and shape a show with me as a 292 00:10:38,069 --> 00:10:36,079 sort of producer on the inside so it was 293 00:10:39,509 --> 00:10:38,079 very much about playing the game and 294 00:10:41,670 --> 00:10:39,519 really going into that and it was 295 00:10:43,430 --> 00:10:41,680 incredibly satisfying to spend you know 296 00:10:47,190 --> 00:10:43,440 the better part of four months 297 00:10:50,230 --> 00:10:47,200 going through the mental um uh checks 298 00:10:52,150 --> 00:10:50,240 and balances of basically rolling out a 299 00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:52,160 character for the purpose of tv i mean 300 00:10:56,150 --> 00:10:54,160 that that was what effectively it came 301 00:10:57,509 --> 00:10:56,160 all the hard work boiled down to and 302 00:10:59,430 --> 00:10:57,519 that was what i was able to do and bring 303 00:11:00,870 --> 00:10:59,440 it so that i got to second so for 304 00:11:02,150 --> 00:11:00,880 example 305 00:11:04,710 --> 00:11:02,160 i took lessons from madonna you know 306 00:11:07,030 --> 00:11:04,720 madonna every time she puts out an album 307 00:11:09,430 --> 00:11:07,040 she she changes her image you know 308 00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:09,440 david bowie yeah david bowie yeah so so 309 00:11:13,990 --> 00:11:11,040 you know i would get my hair cut all 310 00:11:15,990 --> 00:11:14,000 crazy one week or i would um get it 311 00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:16,000 colored the week after 312 00:11:21,269 --> 00:11:19,120 or i i was aware that these shows 313 00:11:23,990 --> 00:11:21,279 function like any soapy like home and 314 00:11:26,310 --> 00:11:24,000 away or bold and beautiful there's plots 315 00:11:27,509 --> 00:11:26,320 and subplots when you see them arising 316 00:11:29,430 --> 00:11:27,519 you've got to inject yourself into them 317 00:11:31,430 --> 00:11:29,440 but even better create your own plot so 318 00:11:33,030 --> 00:11:31,440 i became the little guy doing weights 319 00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:33,040 that became a key plot and i would go 320 00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:35,040 and ask for protein powder and i would 321 00:11:38,870 --> 00:11:36,959 perpetuate this thing that i was the 322 00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:38,880 little guy who was 15 kilos lighter than 323 00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:40,720 anyone else any other big strong boys in 324 00:11:44,150 --> 00:11:42,640 the house but because it was funny for 325 00:11:46,069 --> 00:11:44,160 tim to be the one who was going let's go 326 00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:46,079 and do weights not the muscley boys so i 327 00:11:50,150 --> 00:11:48,000 knew that was part of my story so it was 328 00:11:52,870 --> 00:11:50,160 about rolling out 329 00:11:55,190 --> 00:11:52,880 in some ways i suppose quite insincerely 330 00:11:57,030 --> 00:11:55,200 a character you know not be part of the 331 00:11:59,190 --> 00:11:57,040 long jam of people trying to vomit their 332 00:12:01,350 --> 00:11:59,200 personalities onto australia because 333 00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:01,360 they do for they say they get a blend of 334 00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:03,360 personalities but from my reading of the 335 00:12:06,310 --> 00:12:04,800 show they're mainly 336 00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:06,320 incredibly extroverted people i mean 337 00:12:09,670 --> 00:12:08,480 only extroverts would go on that show 338 00:12:11,110 --> 00:12:09,680 but i actually think that there are a 339 00:12:13,269 --> 00:12:11,120 lot of people who wouldn't want to do it 340 00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:13,279 it is actually is quite exposing you are 341 00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:14,880 metaphorically and literally naked you 342 00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:15,680 know 343 00:12:18,550 --> 00:12:17,120 there will be pictures of me naked until 344 00:12:20,150 --> 00:12:18,560 the end of time on the internet you know 345 00:12:21,829 --> 00:12:20,160 so you actually 346 00:12:23,110 --> 00:12:21,839 i mean i'm not saying it's rare for 347 00:12:24,790 --> 00:12:23,120 someone to want to do this but i'm just 348 00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:24,800 saying it does take a certain kind of 349 00:12:28,310 --> 00:12:26,560 person unfortunately there was a rule 350 00:12:30,550 --> 00:12:28,320 change in my year where 351 00:12:32,629 --> 00:12:30,560 you could nominate someone or vote for 352 00:12:34,310 --> 00:12:32,639 someone out of the house 353 00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:34,320 for flying under the radar because we 354 00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:35,680 didn't anticipate that in our planning 355 00:12:38,790 --> 00:12:37,200 and that became a major factor because i 356 00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:38,800 was nominated that first week because 357 00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:40,160 they could all see i was flying under 358 00:12:44,069 --> 00:12:42,240 the radar or they suspected i was 359 00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:44,079 but once i got over that hiccup i was 360 00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:45,920 able to roll through and you know and 361 00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:48,320 and of course i ended up um very almost 362 00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:50,079 taking it out so it was um well now that 363 00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:51,360 you've told me that that was all a 364 00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:53,040 character type can i have my five bucks 365 00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:54,880 well you know what's funny is it people 366 00:12:58,550 --> 00:12:56,480 say that too people said to me but the 367 00:13:01,430 --> 00:12:58,560 thing is you can't fake a personality i 368 00:13:03,269 --> 00:13:01,440 mean it wasn't like i faked myself but 369 00:13:05,269 --> 00:13:03,279 much in the same way that when you go 370 00:13:07,110 --> 00:13:05,279 and see your mum and dad you're not 371 00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:07,120 throwing out the curse words you know we 372 00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:08,399 all have different characters in our 373 00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:10,240 lives we all censor ourselves and change 374 00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:13,360 our behavior this was about 375 00:13:17,750 --> 00:13:15,200 really thinking about 376 00:13:20,150 --> 00:13:17,760 how the dynamics of this game shone it 377 00:13:22,629 --> 00:13:20,160 is a game show 378 00:13:24,069 --> 00:13:22,639 it's a game show with contestants to win 379 00:13:25,910 --> 00:13:24,079 a prize 380 00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:25,920 yeah and i never i was never hurtful to 381 00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:27,360 people and i never 382 00:13:31,590 --> 00:13:29,680 i i never i don't didn't see that i was 383 00:13:33,269 --> 00:13:31,600 being manipulative in a sense that i 384 00:13:34,629 --> 00:13:33,279 never intended to be manipulative i 385 00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:34,639 don't think i was 386 00:13:37,990 --> 00:13:36,480 i rolled out my personality in a way 387 00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:38,000 that i was conscious of and if you're an 388 00:13:40,870 --> 00:13:39,519 intelligent person you don't put 389 00:13:43,110 --> 00:13:40,880 yourself in a situation like that 390 00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:43,120 without thinking i mean it is completely 391 00:13:47,350 --> 00:13:45,440 sincere for me to think about what i'm 392 00:13:48,790 --> 00:13:47,360 doing and to censor myself because i'm a 393 00:13:51,269 --> 00:13:48,800 thoughtful person who would do that in 394 00:13:53,030 --> 00:13:51,279 real life but it was incredibly in terms 395 00:13:54,389 --> 00:13:53,040 of the psychology of it i know that i 396 00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:54,399 was affected by the especially the first 397 00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:55,680 couple weeks afterwards 398 00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:57,120 for some weeks after the show i had a 399 00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:58,800 lot of trouble talking to people 400 00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:00,720 intimately in front of mirrors because 401 00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:05,430 it took me a it did take me a couple of 402 00:14:08,710 --> 00:14:06,560 weeks to admit that i was playing the 403 00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:08,720 game to the media to you know you do a 404 00:14:12,069 --> 00:14:10,079 round of media interviews as you go 405 00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:12,079 around and tv and radio and then of 406 00:14:15,750 --> 00:14:13,600 course you hit the sort of nightclubs on 407 00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:15,760 the on the on the you know on the 408 00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:17,279 circuit around all the capital cities 409 00:14:21,189 --> 00:14:18,880 and then you know as you go around 410 00:14:22,629 --> 00:14:21,199 network sort all that out yeah obviously 411 00:14:23,910 --> 00:14:22,639 your agent does and you get paid for 412 00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:23,920 each appearance but of course they get 413 00:14:27,430 --> 00:14:25,519 less and less salubrious as you go along 414 00:14:29,550 --> 00:14:27,440 yeah 415 00:14:33,269 --> 00:14:29,560 you literally end up at rsl's and 416 00:14:34,710 --> 00:14:33,279 ridiculously and you know in in 417 00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:34,720 you know the back blocks of melbourne 418 00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:36,480 like right at the back of melbourne you 419 00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:38,240 know it's and and you're there at three 420 00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:39,440 o'clock in the morning what who could 421 00:14:43,189 --> 00:14:41,920 possibly want us you know 422 00:14:44,790 --> 00:14:43,199 it's yeah i was gonna say it's a bit 423 00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:44,800 like extras isn't it 424 00:14:48,470 --> 00:14:47,120 well it's like the um it's like uh the 425 00:14:49,910 --> 00:14:48,480 office where he you know the second 426 00:14:52,310 --> 00:14:49,920 series where he 427 00:14:54,389 --> 00:14:52,320 that's what i was talking about 428 00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:54,399 very much 429 00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:56,000 that style of thing so it took me a long 430 00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:57,600 time i actually admitted to chris and 431 00:15:00,949 --> 00:14:59,440 craig craig of course chaser writers who 432 00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:00,959 who had a shawn triple j at the time on 433 00:15:04,069 --> 00:15:03,120 a drive show and i told them 434 00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:04,079 um 435 00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:05,680 because 436 00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:07,760 um for some reason that was when i felt 437 00:15:11,189 --> 00:15:09,760 comfortable to let it go but i was on tv 438 00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:11,199 the night after the end of the show and 439 00:15:15,189 --> 00:15:13,040 rove who's a you know 440 00:15:17,430 --> 00:15:15,199 well once was a host in australia 441 00:15:19,509 --> 00:15:17,440 he he asked me and i denied it because i 442 00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:19,519 was so used to denying it i wasn't ready 443 00:15:23,509 --> 00:15:21,360 and i was so worried about 444 00:15:25,269 --> 00:15:23,519 people's um 445 00:15:26,550 --> 00:15:25,279 the way people would view me because 446 00:15:28,949 --> 00:15:26,560 basically you have to make a choice 447 00:15:30,949 --> 00:15:28,959 between being the nice guy 448 00:15:32,710 --> 00:15:30,959 and being smart and sly now which would 449 00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:32,720 you rather be the nice guy who was 450 00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:34,000 recently or would you rather be the 451 00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:35,519 smart sly guy who actually played it a 452 00:15:38,790 --> 00:15:36,880 little bit and actually rolled the dice 453 00:15:40,710 --> 00:15:38,800 a little bit so that was the choice and 454 00:15:42,069 --> 00:15:40,720 then at the end i eventually wrote a big 455 00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:42,079 feature piece for the herald where i 456 00:15:45,670 --> 00:15:44,240 talked about how i'd contrived and i 457 00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:45,680 rolled out and i had a strategy and 458 00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:47,199 stuff so i don't think that's a secret 459 00:15:50,629 --> 00:15:48,639 though tim i'm sure there were lots of 460 00:15:52,310 --> 00:15:50,639 other people well those that had the 461 00:15:54,389 --> 00:15:52,320 mental capacity to do so who were 462 00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:54,399 playing the game 463 00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:55,680 that's the whole point of it well that's 464 00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:57,040 and there's no doubt that they all 465 00:16:00,150 --> 00:15:58,320 everyone was playing the game and so i 466 00:16:01,269 --> 00:16:00,160 don't have any there's no guilt 467 00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:01,279 associated with it because as we've 468 00:16:03,990 --> 00:16:02,480 already said it's a game show but also 469 00:16:06,710 --> 00:16:04,000 everyone was doing it and if they say 470 00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:06,720 that they weren't then they're lying 471 00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:08,560 or they're stupid there's just no other 472 00:16:11,910 --> 00:16:10,399 way to describe it well let's talk a 473 00:16:13,590 --> 00:16:11,920 little bit about some of your other 474 00:16:15,189 --> 00:16:13,600 interests tim i know that you're very as 475 00:16:16,629 --> 00:16:15,199 part of your writing you do a lot of 476 00:16:18,150 --> 00:16:16,639 work with cults 477 00:16:20,069 --> 00:16:18,160 and in particular you've done a lot of 478 00:16:22,470 --> 00:16:20,079 research with scientology 479 00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:22,480 i know that you recently or a few years 480 00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:24,720 ago interviewed cirrus brooks about some 481 00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:26,399 of the beliefs that scientologists have 482 00:16:30,629 --> 00:16:28,560 with respect to drugs and 483 00:16:33,189 --> 00:16:30,639 what you refer to in your piece as kitty 484 00:16:34,949 --> 00:16:33,199 cocaine when when we're talking about um 485 00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:34,959 antipsychotics and that sort of thing 486 00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:36,000 can you tell us a bit about your 487 00:16:39,509 --> 00:16:37,600 experience with that 488 00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:39,519 scientology has a real problem with 489 00:16:43,030 --> 00:16:41,920 psychology and psychiatry it's a little 490 00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:43,040 bit like 491 00:16:47,670 --> 00:16:45,920 in 1984 where we're not fighting eurasia 492 00:16:49,829 --> 00:16:47,680 this week we're fighting whatever the 493 00:16:51,189 --> 00:16:49,839 other country was they need an enemy i 494 00:16:53,749 --> 00:16:51,199 think scientology i think a lot of 495 00:16:55,670 --> 00:16:53,759 groups need another to dislike and to 496 00:16:57,030 --> 00:16:55,680 define themselves against and obviously 497 00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:57,040 psychology because it's views of 498 00:17:00,710 --> 00:16:58,560 scientology probably would be quite 499 00:17:02,470 --> 00:17:00,720 negative 500 00:17:05,110 --> 00:17:02,480 that's a very good analogy in fact when 501 00:17:07,029 --> 00:17:05,120 you just raised there with a 1984 502 00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:07,039 the enemy give the people econom a 503 00:17:09,990 --> 00:17:08,400 common enemy 504 00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:10,000 and so i think that they 505 00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:12,720 um that's why they target psychology but 506 00:17:16,150 --> 00:17:14,079 what fascinates me with a lot of these 507 00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:16,160 groups especially scientology is what 508 00:17:20,309 --> 00:17:17,280 you actually learn about the human 509 00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:20,319 condition through thinking about what it 510 00:17:25,590 --> 00:17:23,600 gives to people to um to be part of them 511 00:17:27,909 --> 00:17:25,600 i know that i was raised in a supportive 512 00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:27,919 environment where i was i got love and 513 00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:31,039 support at every turn in a happy middle 514 00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:33,280 class household where mum and dad earn 515 00:17:35,830 --> 00:17:34,400 good money 516 00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:35,840 were 517 00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:40,080 progressive 518 00:17:43,590 --> 00:17:41,520 i had all those things but not everyone 519 00:17:45,990 --> 00:17:43,600 has had those things and so 520 00:17:47,750 --> 00:17:46,000 i think scientology does what a lot of 521 00:17:49,510 --> 00:17:47,760 religious groups does is it gives people 522 00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:49,520 a family it gives people a group it 523 00:17:54,070 --> 00:17:51,840 gives people sucker and support i mean 524 00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:54,080 the whole e meter thing what is that if 525 00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:55,120 it's not a 526 00:17:59,430 --> 00:17:57,120 cross between a confessional in the 527 00:18:01,029 --> 00:17:59,440 catholic church sense and a counseling 528 00:18:02,789 --> 00:18:01,039 session i mean come on that's what it 529 00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:02,799 actually is that you made a thing is 530 00:18:07,190 --> 00:18:05,600 take away the cans and you've got a 531 00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:07,200 confessing and getting all that off your 532 00:18:11,029 --> 00:18:09,360 chest and also getting getting to yak 533 00:18:13,029 --> 00:18:11,039 about something talk about yourself we 534 00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:13,039 all want that we would all like that 535 00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:15,600 there was a little bit of magic woven in 536 00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:17,840 or technology 537 00:18:21,909 --> 00:18:19,919 to make it legitimate yeah now why is it 538 00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:21,919 that when you go to the doctor 539 00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:24,000 you feel sick you're in the waiting room 540 00:18:27,669 --> 00:18:25,840 you feel house 541 00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:27,679 you get into the doctor 542 00:18:30,870 --> 00:18:29,200 what does the doctor usually say to you 543 00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:30,880 ah i don't know what it is you'll be 544 00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:33,039 fine go home get lots of bed rest drink 545 00:18:35,669 --> 00:18:34,320 lots of water 546 00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:35,679 why is it that when you walk out of the 547 00:18:39,669 --> 00:18:37,760 door of the doctor's surgery you feel 548 00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:39,679 fine well the reason is because he's 549 00:18:44,710 --> 00:18:42,480 told you're not gonna die because he has 550 00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:44,720 what in our modern culture is the witch 551 00:18:48,950 --> 00:18:47,520 doctor mantle except instead of being in 552 00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:48,960 touch with the gods he's done his six 553 00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:50,320 years of medical training which has some 554 00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:53,360 for us some mystical placebo effect that 555 00:18:57,510 --> 00:18:55,679 allows us to it's exactly the same with 556 00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:57,520 these groups it's 557 00:19:00,789 --> 00:18:58,799 it's this 558 00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:00,799 i i finally know the answer it's like 559 00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:02,640 with when i do hillsong and stuff i mean 560 00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:04,400 what i hate about christianity in those 561 00:19:09,270 --> 00:19:07,200 pentecostal groups is the laziness of it 562 00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:09,280 the idea that all the answers are in one 563 00:19:14,549 --> 00:19:12,080 book i'm sorry but life is much more 564 00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:14,559 complex than that the bible of course is 565 00:19:17,590 --> 00:19:16,400 a fascinating text 566 00:19:19,510 --> 00:19:17,600 with a whole lot of really interesting 567 00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:19,520 ideas a lot of them really really 568 00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:22,080 positive in it but the idea that you can 569 00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:23,840 just get everything from that book is 570 00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:27,440 just so lazy and i think that you know 571 00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:28,960 in terms of scientology a lot of these 572 00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:32,000 groups they come with a prefab 573 00:19:36,950 --> 00:19:34,480 explanation for almost everything and it 574 00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:36,960 crosses over not just an epistemology 575 00:19:41,190 --> 00:19:39,200 sort of cosmology and that sort of stuff 576 00:19:43,510 --> 00:19:41,200 and explanation for the world but also 577 00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:43,520 goes deep down into 578 00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:45,360 um 579 00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:47,520 your personal relationships and stuff so 580 00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:49,440 it actually gives you all 581 00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:51,200 the whole gamut you know it's 582 00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:52,400 interesting in that sense because it 583 00:19:55,669 --> 00:19:54,080 does actually give you 584 00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:55,679 it's almost like a package deal it's a 585 00:19:58,950 --> 00:19:56,720 religion 586 00:20:00,390 --> 00:19:58,960 it's it's it's a way to live 587 00:20:02,150 --> 00:20:00,400 it's a do you know what i mean it 588 00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:02,160 literally prescribes diets and stuff i 589 00:20:05,669 --> 00:20:04,240 mean you could almost be a blank sheep 590 00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:05,679 and walk in there and have a get a whole 591 00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:07,600 personality you know what i mean look i 592 00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:08,880 mean and i you know i don't necessarily 593 00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:10,640 have anything against scientology it's 594 00:20:14,789 --> 00:20:12,960 just that there's a perception 595 00:20:16,310 --> 00:20:14,799 um and people like nick xenophon have 596 00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:16,320 picked up on it recently and because 597 00:20:21,029 --> 00:20:18,480 they're so litigious it is difficult to 598 00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:21,039 be able to articulate 599 00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:22,720 your objection 600 00:20:26,870 --> 00:20:25,280 fully or without being cautious 601 00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:26,880 because i have received the 10 page 602 00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:28,080 letters and i have received the phone 603 00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:29,440 calls every week when i've written stuff 604 00:20:33,270 --> 00:20:31,440 about them but i think that in general 605 00:20:35,669 --> 00:20:33,280 terms you know they 606 00:20:37,029 --> 00:20:35,679 it's it's perceived that as you say 607 00:20:39,190 --> 00:20:37,039 there always will be something wrong 608 00:20:40,789 --> 00:20:39,200 with you and that you will always need 609 00:20:42,230 --> 00:20:40,799 to hand over the dosh 610 00:20:44,070 --> 00:20:42,240 in order to be cured now you might say 611 00:20:45,350 --> 00:20:44,080 to me but hang on how's that any 612 00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:45,360 different to the catholic church or any 613 00:20:49,590 --> 00:20:47,200 other churches i mean brian houston from 614 00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:49,600 hillsong quite rightly says well of 615 00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:50,960 course we're asking our congregation for 616 00:20:54,310 --> 00:20:52,400 money the catholic church the anglican 617 00:20:56,950 --> 00:20:54,320 church have had about two thousand years 618 00:20:59,909 --> 00:20:56,960 and a thousand years to to to get there 619 00:21:02,390 --> 00:20:59,919 you know dosh in a good situation we 620 00:21:03,909 --> 00:21:02,400 started you know in 1987. so what i'm 621 00:21:07,029 --> 00:21:03,919 saying is 622 00:21:08,630 --> 00:21:07,039 you really can't spit them away 623 00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:08,640 from other religions or mainstream 624 00:21:12,549 --> 00:21:11,440 religion except in their urgency 625 00:21:14,710 --> 00:21:12,559 do you know what i mean that's the 626 00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:14,720 urgency of wanting to get that money and 627 00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:17,440 to and and that translates into their 628 00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:19,440 methods being perhaps 629 00:21:24,470 --> 00:21:22,640 unorthodox and people being aggrieved 630 00:21:26,149 --> 00:21:24,480 because they feel like they've been they 631 00:21:28,070 --> 00:21:26,159 feel like 632 00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:28,080 they've been duped or that there's not 633 00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:30,240 if it doesn't work what you've lost is 634 00:21:33,190 --> 00:21:31,919 greater than what you could have gained 635 00:21:35,029 --> 00:21:33,200 i mean i mean there's not many people 636 00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:35,039 who go i went to the local anglican 637 00:21:38,950 --> 00:21:36,960 church for you know six months and i 638 00:21:41,110 --> 00:21:38,960 feel cheated you know what i mean well 639 00:21:42,310 --> 00:21:41,120 you just you went down on sunday you met 640 00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:42,320 some people you went to a couple of 641 00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:44,400 social functions you weren't 642 00:21:46,870 --> 00:21:45,600 you know there was there was nothing 643 00:21:49,430 --> 00:21:46,880 that could anyone could describe as 644 00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:49,440 brainwash it in that situation or and 645 00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:51,039 hillsong when you go there they're all 646 00:21:54,950 --> 00:21:53,360 singing and you realize it's that smoke 647 00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:54,960 and mirrors it's a rock concert it's all 648 00:22:01,669 --> 00:21:58,400 that visceral stimulation of light 649 00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:01,679 and noise and emotion because what they 650 00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:04,960 sell is emotion and passion and group 651 00:22:07,990 --> 00:22:06,320 dynamics and groups i don't know what 652 00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:08,000 you're in that audience rachel and i 653 00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:09,840 about six months ago so i went to see 654 00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:11,120 benny hinn 655 00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:13,200 and the psychology at work there was 656 00:22:17,430 --> 00:22:14,880 very interesting on the group dynamics 657 00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:17,440 of the audience but we actually got up 658 00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:19,679 and left when the people on the stage 659 00:22:22,870 --> 00:22:20,880 started 660 00:22:23,750 --> 00:22:22,880 throwing their bodies about during the 661 00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:23,760 paper 662 00:22:28,789 --> 00:22:26,880 you know it's interesting because my 663 00:22:30,310 --> 00:22:28,799 first taste of hillsong was before they 664 00:22:31,990 --> 00:22:30,320 perfected their method 665 00:22:33,029 --> 00:22:32,000 my first taste of hillsong was when i 666 00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:33,039 was 667 00:22:37,990 --> 00:22:36,720 sitting for the hsc and we had 668 00:22:39,909 --> 00:22:38,000 advertised at our school through some of 669 00:22:42,390 --> 00:22:39,919 the kids something called an hsc hype 670 00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:42,400 camp it was a opportunity to go away for 671 00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:44,240 a week and study so you know we're all 672 00:22:49,029 --> 00:22:47,039 stressing about the hsc life-changing 673 00:22:50,470 --> 00:22:49,039 exam at the end of school and we were 674 00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:50,480 all sleeping in these cabins we had and 675 00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:52,000 it was you know my mom said off you go i 676 00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:54,000 mean she'd never we were atheists but 677 00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:55,440 she had never had any problems religion 678 00:22:58,549 --> 00:22:57,280 she goes oh they're anglicans 679 00:22:59,909 --> 00:22:58,559 they'll do you know home you'll be fine 680 00:23:01,510 --> 00:22:59,919 she didn't know that they were hillsong 681 00:23:03,190 --> 00:23:01,520 because they had only just arrived and i 682 00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:03,200 grew up in the hills so that's why i was 683 00:23:06,789 --> 00:23:05,360 exposed to them in embryonic form and 684 00:23:08,549 --> 00:23:06,799 anyway so we go along this camp and 685 00:23:12,149 --> 00:23:08,559 every night we'd watch a movie or we'd 686 00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:12,159 do an activity and as we went through 687 00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:14,240 it became clear that these things were 688 00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:16,640 all leading on though it was this week 689 00:23:20,549 --> 00:23:18,960 was very purposely structured and on the 690 00:23:22,390 --> 00:23:20,559 final night we were all sitting in this 691 00:23:23,990 --> 00:23:22,400 room all bunched up and they kept moving 692 00:23:25,270 --> 00:23:24,000 us in closer moving us in closer so 693 00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:25,280 we're sitting on the floor like a bunch 694 00:23:27,430 --> 00:23:26,640 of children school children which we 695 00:23:32,149 --> 00:23:27,440 were 696 00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:32,159 these charismatic preachers telling us 697 00:23:35,750 --> 00:23:34,320 all about you know that god was going to 698 00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:35,760 knock on our soul but we wouldn't get a 699 00:23:39,909 --> 00:23:37,600 second chance and that we needed to join 700 00:23:42,070 --> 00:23:39,919 the church and we needed to and that 701 00:23:42,950 --> 00:23:42,080 your heart thumping was god knocking on 702 00:23:44,549 --> 00:23:42,960 your 703 00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:44,559 door and if you don't pay attention to 704 00:23:47,430 --> 00:23:46,240 god knocking on your door then i don't 705 00:23:49,990 --> 00:23:47,440 know what you don't need to be a 706 00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:50,000 physiological sort of expert to know 707 00:23:53,510 --> 00:23:52,000 that when people are put under pressure 708 00:23:54,710 --> 00:23:53,520 of course their heart's going to beat of 709 00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:54,720 course you know 710 00:23:57,830 --> 00:23:56,159 and so kids started putting their hands 711 00:23:59,590 --> 00:23:57,840 up and kids started being taken from the 712 00:24:01,430 --> 00:23:59,600 room to be saved and that sort of thing 713 00:24:03,830 --> 00:24:01,440 now of course when i returned home my 714 00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:03,840 mum being the fire brand sort of 715 00:24:07,270 --> 00:24:05,760 activist and you know 716 00:24:08,149 --> 00:24:07,280 was straight up to the school and they 717 00:24:10,390 --> 00:24:08,159 never 718 00:24:12,789 --> 00:24:10,400 advertised at our school again but that 719 00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:12,799 was when i realized that was when i got 720 00:24:18,549 --> 00:24:14,640 the burning desire 721 00:24:20,149 --> 00:24:18,559 to speak yeah these people these people 722 00:24:22,149 --> 00:24:20,159 will prey on vulnerable people and 723 00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:22,159 that's my view and i do think that when 724 00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:24,400 i go many years later when they're much 725 00:24:27,909 --> 00:24:25,760 wealthier when they've built these 726 00:24:29,590 --> 00:24:27,919 enormous churches we call churches but 727 00:24:31,350 --> 00:24:29,600 really they're giant sort of convention 728 00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:31,360 centers really aren't they 729 00:24:34,630 --> 00:24:32,880 entertainment convention yeah yeah 730 00:24:35,909 --> 00:24:34,640 enormous sort of and i mean that's just 731 00:24:37,269 --> 00:24:35,919 not i'm not complaining about the 732 00:24:39,269 --> 00:24:37,279 architecture it's just as functional as 733 00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:39,279 any other church but 734 00:24:43,990 --> 00:24:42,240 that was why i feel some level of when i 735 00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:44,000 meet people out there who 736 00:24:47,590 --> 00:24:45,760 are bible students from america who've 737 00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:47,600 been here for some 738 00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:50,000 um six months and who are basically 739 00:24:54,310 --> 00:24:52,480 arranging all their whose bibles who are 740 00:24:56,950 --> 00:24:54,320 short on bible study and long on 741 00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:56,960 stacking up cds and dvds in the shop 742 00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:58,720 getting paid very little 743 00:25:02,070 --> 00:25:00,320 that's when i start to get worried that 744 00:25:05,029 --> 00:25:02,080 this is 745 00:25:07,110 --> 00:25:05,039 at least part thereof is for a purpose 746 00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:07,120 it's got nothing to do with religion or 747 00:25:11,909 --> 00:25:10,720 christ or any belief in you know jesus 748 00:25:13,909 --> 00:25:11,919 quite apart from the fact that i think 749 00:25:16,630 --> 00:25:13,919 that jesus's teachings are completely 750 00:25:18,230 --> 00:25:16,640 the antithesis of the teachings of brian 751 00:25:19,110 --> 00:25:18,240 houston i mean this is pentecostal guy 752 00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:19,120 the first 753 00:25:22,870 --> 00:25:20,640 move he ever made in the media was to 754 00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:22,880 write a book called you need more money 755 00:25:27,110 --> 00:25:24,320 and he's been 756 00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:27,120 since 757 00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:29,200 because his is the brand of christianity 758 00:25:34,549 --> 00:25:32,240 which manages to twist jesus's um vows 759 00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:34,559 of poverty and lack of possessions into 760 00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:36,480 some kind of treatise that we should all 761 00:25:40,870 --> 00:25:38,640 accumulate wealth benefits the same 762 00:25:43,269 --> 00:25:40,880 thing yes so so this kind of absolute 763 00:25:45,269 --> 00:25:43,279 bastardization of what i see of what the 764 00:25:47,110 --> 00:25:45,279 teachings of christ but then again 765 00:25:48,470 --> 00:25:47,120 that's a factional argument or that's an 766 00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:48,480 argument about christ's teachings i 767 00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:50,080 don't want to get into that because i 768 00:25:54,070 --> 00:25:52,159 that's not the point the point is that 769 00:25:55,990 --> 00:25:54,080 these people i think do something which 770 00:25:58,549 --> 00:25:56,000 is pernicious and i think is 771 00:26:00,630 --> 00:25:58,559 premeditated and that is why i've always 772 00:26:02,070 --> 00:26:00,640 been so fascinated by it and and the 773 00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:02,080 fact that more fascinating about why 774 00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:04,240 people need that and how we can 775 00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:05,760 construct that 776 00:26:10,230 --> 00:26:08,480 in a secular safe way how can we repeat 777 00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:10,240 those experiences that people clearly 778 00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:12,320 crave so how do you how do you satisfy 779 00:26:16,870 --> 00:26:14,799 this human urge but in a way that's safe 780 00:26:19,510 --> 00:26:16,880 and that is uh 781 00:26:22,149 --> 00:26:19,520 oh they can watch big brother 782 00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:22,159 oh you got me there 783 00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:24,400 so hillsong is really more a mainstream 784 00:26:28,149 --> 00:26:26,159 kind of i don't know if you would you 785 00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:28,159 call it religion i suppose it is 786 00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:29,840 um one of the other interesting 787 00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:31,200 investigations you've done to him as 788 00:26:35,909 --> 00:26:33,600 part of your interest in cults is to go 789 00:26:38,149 --> 00:26:35,919 undercover for freedom force 790 00:26:40,710 --> 00:26:38,159 now these people are a little bit more 791 00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:40,720 nutty i guess than say the mainstream 792 00:26:44,149 --> 00:26:42,080 hill songs tell us a little bit about it 793 00:26:47,990 --> 00:26:44,159 and and a little bit more political but 794 00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:48,000 this group were much smaller and uh met 795 00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:50,320 in wealthy suburbs in in sydney and 796 00:26:54,549 --> 00:26:52,320 bondi and very near the beach and very 797 00:26:56,390 --> 00:26:54,559 sort of nice we're invited to listen to 798 00:26:57,669 --> 00:26:56,400 a woman when i was in this meeting who 799 00:26:59,110 --> 00:26:57,679 was telling us he was a nurse and was 800 00:27:00,310 --> 00:26:59,120 telling us about all the chemicals that 801 00:27:01,990 --> 00:27:00,320 that are being 802 00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:02,000 there in our lives 803 00:27:07,350 --> 00:27:03,919 and that incidentally we're coming 804 00:27:08,789 --> 00:27:07,360 across you know so everything from soap 805 00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:08,799 all the way through to all of the 806 00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:10,240 chemicals that we 807 00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:12,240 you know have been putting about in our 808 00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:14,960 environment and and you know underarm 809 00:27:17,750 --> 00:27:16,640 sprays all that sort of thing and i had 810 00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:17,760 a great deal of sympathy for this 811 00:27:22,470 --> 00:27:19,200 argument because it does concern me the 812 00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:22,480 amount of chemicals that we i mean co2 813 00:27:25,269 --> 00:27:24,080 and copenhagen come on that's not the 814 00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:25,279 real problem of the world the real 815 00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:27,039 problem is pollution i mean china can 816 00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:28,559 only spew so much stuff into their 817 00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:29,760 rivers and that before eventually it 818 00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:31,360 gets here i mean you can't there's a 819 00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:32,880 critical mass 820 00:27:36,549 --> 00:27:34,640 so i was very amenable to that argument 821 00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:36,559 then we moved on to the main course 822 00:27:40,390 --> 00:27:38,880 though which is where the man put up the 823 00:27:42,070 --> 00:27:40,400 40 or 50 824 00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:42,080 pictures of 825 00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:43,760 planes with 826 00:27:47,430 --> 00:27:45,919 trails of vapor behind them and this was 827 00:27:49,350 --> 00:27:47,440 explained to us that 828 00:27:51,269 --> 00:27:49,360 aluminium compounds were placed in the 829 00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:51,279 planes by the world bank to control the 830 00:27:53,269 --> 00:27:52,240 weather 831 00:27:55,510 --> 00:27:53,279 um 832 00:27:56,789 --> 00:27:55,520 it was explained to us 833 00:27:58,149 --> 00:27:56,799 we've heard this before haven't we 834 00:28:00,310 --> 00:27:58,159 originally yeah we might have heard 835 00:28:02,149 --> 00:28:00,320 something like this before um but this 836 00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:02,159 could be microchips just aluminium was 837 00:28:06,389 --> 00:28:05,200 it this was his um this i think this was 838 00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:06,399 his pet issue because a lot of the 839 00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:08,960 photographs were his that he'd taken 840 00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:10,240 he then started talking about the 841 00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:12,880 rockefellers and the rothschilds and the 842 00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:15,600 the partnership they made you know 843 00:28:20,230 --> 00:28:18,080 a hundred years ago that allowed them to 844 00:28:21,669 --> 00:28:20,240 do xyz and various other sort of 845 00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:21,679 conspiracy things 846 00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:23,279 the explanation was that they were so 847 00:28:26,470 --> 00:28:24,960 wealthy then why are they not so wealthy 848 00:28:28,470 --> 00:28:26,480 now are the family not so wealthy it's 849 00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:28,480 because they went underground and that 850 00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:29,600 they're actually 851 00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:30,960 invested in something that's made them 852 00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:32,480 way more powerful than you would ever 853 00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:34,000 yeah that's that's the new world order 854 00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:36,240 and the illuminati right yeah 855 00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:37,679 that was touched on was interesting when 856 00:28:42,070 --> 00:28:39,440 i went to the website they had what they 857 00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:42,080 call core belief so there was a range of 858 00:28:47,669 --> 00:28:44,960 less exciting more watered down sort of 859 00:28:51,350 --> 00:28:47,679 general principles that were 860 00:28:53,110 --> 00:28:51,360 kind of believable kind of palatable 861 00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:53,120 what was disturbing was when i took a 862 00:28:56,950 --> 00:28:54,480 number of they bought actually a number 863 00:28:59,510 --> 00:28:56,960 of their dvds one of which was about how 864 00:29:03,029 --> 00:28:59,520 aids um is not real 865 00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,039 and that aids is a um 866 00:29:08,389 --> 00:29:05,760 aids is a fur fee created by poor 867 00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:08,399 countries to get funding for from the 868 00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:10,000 united nations 869 00:29:14,710 --> 00:29:11,440 aids 870 00:29:16,549 --> 00:29:14,720 is predominantly spread by homosexuals a 871 00:29:19,230 --> 00:29:16,559 great deal of description 872 00:29:22,470 --> 00:29:19,240 um at why 873 00:29:24,070 --> 00:29:22,480 homosexuals and drug users 874 00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:24,080 spread aids 875 00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:26,960 though very scientifically explained 876 00:29:31,269 --> 00:29:29,440 the the underlying thing was that they 877 00:29:34,149 --> 00:29:31,279 are filthy and perverted and disgusting 878 00:29:35,590 --> 00:29:34,159 and on bath house visits they supposedly 879 00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:35,600 take all these 880 00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:39,520 uh antibiotics and other drugs like ammo 881 00:29:44,070 --> 00:29:41,440 nitrate which is used in the gay 882 00:29:46,389 --> 00:29:44,080 community um which is a muscle relaxant 883 00:29:49,269 --> 00:29:46,399 and a and gives you a very intense high 884 00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:49,279 yeah it's poppers right yeah poppers um 885 00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:50,799 and this was the this was the 886 00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:52,880 explanation as to why homosexuals were 887 00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:54,000 dying there's nothing to do with the 888 00:29:57,510 --> 00:29:55,440 aids virus 889 00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:57,520 and they did make a lot of 890 00:30:00,630 --> 00:29:58,960 hay out of the fact that people never 891 00:30:02,870 --> 00:30:00,640 die from age they die from a secondary 892 00:30:05,110 --> 00:30:02,880 disease which we do agree on yeah they 893 00:30:08,549 --> 00:30:05,120 had scientists talking on it but it was 894 00:30:12,149 --> 00:30:08,559 very very sinister and offensive because 895 00:30:14,230 --> 00:30:12,159 clearly it was an explanation as to why 896 00:30:15,350 --> 00:30:14,240 gay men especially 897 00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:15,360 are 898 00:30:19,190 --> 00:30:17,440 you know damned i suppose is the way to 899 00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:19,200 put it and so 900 00:30:23,830 --> 00:30:20,880 and of course drug users it wasn't it 901 00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:23,840 wasn't aids it was the drugs that they 902 00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:25,760 were polluting their bodies with that 903 00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:27,760 was leading to them to immune sort of 904 00:30:30,870 --> 00:30:29,760 collapse so this is where it got and of 905 00:30:32,389 --> 00:30:30,880 course there was stuff on the moon 906 00:30:34,230 --> 00:30:32,399 landing there was some other stuff now 907 00:30:37,269 --> 00:30:34,240 my memory is a little bit hazy now but 908 00:30:38,630 --> 00:30:37,279 it was the breadth of the sort of 909 00:30:39,990 --> 00:30:38,640 madness 910 00:30:41,669 --> 00:30:40,000 it was frustrating because some of the 911 00:30:44,549 --> 00:30:41,679 stuff that they believed in was was 912 00:30:46,789 --> 00:30:44,559 quite sort of reasonable i know one of 913 00:30:49,029 --> 00:30:46,799 the guys um 914 00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:49,039 uh runs a health food shop and and and 915 00:30:53,350 --> 00:30:51,360 sells like so cafe and sort of 916 00:30:54,470 --> 00:30:53,360 macrobiotic sort of stuff which is quite 917 00:30:55,830 --> 00:30:54,480 reasonable of course we should all be 918 00:30:58,230 --> 00:30:55,840 eating organic food of course we should 919 00:31:00,230 --> 00:30:58,240 be eating whole foods and not processed 920 00:31:02,710 --> 00:31:00,240 foods i mean no one really 921 00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:02,720 would but the blend the beautiful blend 922 00:31:06,549 --> 00:31:04,880 of that stuff with really quite lunatic 923 00:31:07,750 --> 00:31:06,559 stuff was was interesting can i just say 924 00:31:09,510 --> 00:31:07,760 tim the reason that richard and i are 925 00:31:10,950 --> 00:31:09,520 looking at each other with our eyes wide 926 00:31:13,669 --> 00:31:10,960 open is because we've heard all this 927 00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:13,679 stuff before through the anti-vaxx lobby 928 00:31:18,389 --> 00:31:16,240 so the anti-vaccinations tend to start 929 00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:18,399 with eat whole foods you don't need 930 00:31:22,950 --> 00:31:20,640 vaccines because you just need a healthy 931 00:31:24,789 --> 00:31:22,960 lifestyle and lots of love and then they 932 00:31:26,789 --> 00:31:24,799 go down to the david ick kind of 933 00:31:28,470 --> 00:31:26,799 conspiracy theories which is 934 00:31:30,950 --> 00:31:28,480 the illuminati which is controlled by 935 00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:30,960 the rockefellers and the rothschilds 936 00:31:35,590 --> 00:31:33,200 invented the swine flu and are 937 00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:35,600 distributing it via chemtrails so it's 938 00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:38,080 funny how these conspiracy theories seem 939 00:31:42,789 --> 00:31:40,720 to cross over all kinds of areas so i've 940 00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:42,799 heard it all before and you can have 941 00:31:46,230 --> 00:31:44,640 seemingly quite interesting set of ideas 942 00:31:47,909 --> 00:31:46,240 that are quite mainstream and even run a 943 00:31:50,149 --> 00:31:47,919 business where you're selling people 944 00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:50,159 macrobiotic foods but when you start to 945 00:31:54,549 --> 00:31:52,320 pull people into a closer orbit then you 946 00:31:56,710 --> 00:31:54,559 start to feed them with stories which 947 00:31:58,389 --> 00:31:56,720 are really quite malicious and that's 948 00:32:01,110 --> 00:31:58,399 exactly what the anti-vaxx lobby does 949 00:32:02,389 --> 00:32:01,120 exactly that yeah same thing same sort 950 00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:02,399 of well that's interesting to me and i 951 00:32:05,990 --> 00:32:04,320 do seem to remember that that was part 952 00:32:07,669 --> 00:32:06,000 one of the subjects touched on and i was 953 00:32:09,990 --> 00:32:07,679 only there for a couple of hours 954 00:32:11,909 --> 00:32:10,000 um but i mean i was busting the whole 955 00:32:13,190 --> 00:32:11,919 time to say your explanation 956 00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:13,200 of what 957 00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:14,880 um of why there's inequity in the world 958 00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:17,200 and he'd go further than the the the the 959 00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:18,559 inherent inaccurate inequity and 960 00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:20,080 capitalism but of course i couldn't do 961 00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:21,200 that because 962 00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:23,360 we had to we had to sort of as my mother 963 00:32:26,549 --> 00:32:24,880 the cameraman that i was with kept 964 00:32:28,789 --> 00:32:26,559 saying to me stay on target stay on 965 00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:28,799 target because we couldn't actually 966 00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:30,640 refute the ideas with anything because 967 00:32:33,830 --> 00:32:32,320 we wanted to and 968 00:32:35,269 --> 00:32:33,840 we wanted to blend them 969 00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:35,279 and we wanted to interview them 970 00:32:37,750 --> 00:32:36,480 afterwards and that sort of thing so it 971 00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:37,760 was frustrating because you couldn't 972 00:32:41,190 --> 00:32:39,440 actually because there were lemmings 973 00:32:43,909 --> 00:32:41,200 there and we were a group of lemmings 974 00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:43,919 and we happened to be kind of aware but 975 00:32:47,190 --> 00:32:44,880 there were other people there who 976 00:32:49,430 --> 00:32:47,200 weren't so it didn't this seemed to 977 00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:49,440 literally be almost like when i've been 978 00:32:53,669 --> 00:32:51,200 to alp australian labour party meetings 979 00:32:55,110 --> 00:32:53,679 here it's a group of funny daddies who 980 00:32:56,549 --> 00:32:55,120 get together and 981 00:32:57,750 --> 00:32:56,559 you know i don't ever been to australia 982 00:32:59,909 --> 00:32:57,760 party meeting lately but they are the 983 00:33:01,830 --> 00:32:59,919 most boring sort of 984 00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:01,840 although our reporter amanda rose is a 985 00:33:05,909 --> 00:33:03,760 member of the australian labour party so 986 00:33:07,990 --> 00:33:05,919 she finally truly knows so so what i 987 00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:08,000 mean is it seemed no more no less than i 988 00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:10,080 suppose and my impression was of a group 989 00:33:13,269 --> 00:33:12,000 of well-meaning not well-meaning well 990 00:33:14,870 --> 00:33:13,279 well meaning in the sense that they 991 00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:14,880 believe what they believe putting on a 992 00:33:20,310 --> 00:33:18,240 public lecture as you would 993 00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:20,320 with if anything was important to you so 994 00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:22,720 if you were a skeptic and wanted to 995 00:33:27,269 --> 00:33:24,720 you know yes yes evening about it or 996 00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:27,279 create a podcast and that's what you do 997 00:33:32,149 --> 00:33:29,200 with no more motivation that you were 998 00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:32,159 trying to spread the truth yeah one of 999 00:33:35,509 --> 00:33:33,760 the problems i had tim with doing my 1000 00:33:37,509 --> 00:33:35,519 research for this interview was a lot of 1001 00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:37,519 your links on your website are broken 1002 00:33:40,909 --> 00:33:38,480 and 1003 00:33:43,750 --> 00:33:40,919 where you wrote a lot of your stuff on 1004 00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:43,760 livenews.com.edu is closed down 1005 00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:46,320 so where can we find 1006 00:33:50,710 --> 00:33:48,960 we'll set writings now well sadly being 1007 00:33:53,509 --> 00:33:50,720 a internet publisher 1008 00:33:55,029 --> 00:33:53,519 the problem with it is that it is an imp 1009 00:33:57,110 --> 00:33:55,039 imperturity 1010 00:33:59,110 --> 00:33:57,120 i mean you know that it's not mainstream 1011 00:34:00,710 --> 00:33:59,120 so you're not going to get those initial 1012 00:34:03,350 --> 00:34:00,720 hits like if it was in the herald or if 1013 00:34:05,350 --> 00:34:03,360 it was in the on television but you 1014 00:34:07,110 --> 00:34:05,360 trust that like much like this sort of 1015 00:34:09,589 --> 00:34:07,120 trail of poo that comes out behind a 1016 00:34:11,190 --> 00:34:09,599 goldfish that you will get those hits 1017 00:34:13,589 --> 00:34:11,200 that go on forever if you know what i 1018 00:34:16,149 --> 00:34:13,599 mean yeah that's lovely 1019 00:34:17,589 --> 00:34:16,159 and when they and when they pull it down 1020 00:34:19,109 --> 00:34:17,599 it can be frustrating on that level 1021 00:34:20,710 --> 00:34:19,119 because you know but then you have no 1022 00:34:22,069 --> 00:34:20,720 control on live news was a commercial 1023 00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:22,079 entity that i wrote for was paid to 1024 00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:23,839 write pieces for and it folded and so my 1025 00:34:27,589 --> 00:34:25,440 pieces and those links 1026 00:34:29,109 --> 00:34:27,599 um finished dare i ask was a tv show 1027 00:34:31,909 --> 00:34:29,119 that i did 1028 00:34:34,230 --> 00:34:31,919 uh this year uh it was on community tv 1029 00:34:35,909 --> 00:34:34,240 it was a talk show we had two standard 1030 00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:35,919 episodes i really only found my straps 1031 00:34:39,349 --> 00:34:37,440 towards the end of the season we had one 1032 00:34:41,190 --> 00:34:39,359 on sex workers where we had 1033 00:34:43,829 --> 00:34:41,200 the head of the skulls alliance a sex 1034 00:34:45,510 --> 00:34:43,839 worker and sex worker advocate a 1035 00:34:48,149 --> 00:34:45,520 disabled advocate 1036 00:34:50,710 --> 00:34:48,159 who wants the government to subsidise 1037 00:34:53,829 --> 00:34:50,720 him seeing sex workers he was a 1038 00:34:56,149 --> 00:34:53,839 fascinating interesting person who spent 1039 00:34:58,630 --> 00:34:56,159 a lot of time truth be known 1040 00:34:59,829 --> 00:34:58,640 helping disabled people and others 1041 00:35:02,790 --> 00:34:59,839 masturbate 1042 00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:02,800 or helping people with disabilities have 1043 00:35:06,790 --> 00:35:04,640 sexual relations can you imagine what 1044 00:35:09,829 --> 00:35:06,800 it's like to have a severe 1045 00:35:11,910 --> 00:35:09,839 physical abnormality to come on a show 1046 00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:11,920 and to talk about candidly about how he 1047 00:35:15,829 --> 00:35:14,160 had to get his ask his mother to give 1048 00:35:17,589 --> 00:35:15,839 him access to a sex worker and after a 1049 00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:17,599 couple of times he had to ask his mother 1050 00:35:20,950 --> 00:35:19,200 who's a staunch catholic to give him 1051 00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:20,960 access to a male sex worker i mean can 1052 00:35:25,510 --> 00:35:22,560 you imagine how fascinating that story 1053 00:35:26,710 --> 00:35:25,520 is that was what was amazing so this is 1054 00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:26,720 what some of the stuff i've been doing 1055 00:35:31,349 --> 00:35:29,119 lately and you know 1056 00:35:33,270 --> 00:35:31,359 i suppose in some ways big brother gave 1057 00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:33,280 me that profile but to be honest what it 1058 00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,800 really gave me was confidence i don't 1059 00:35:40,310 --> 00:35:37,200 know why but it's something about fame 1060 00:35:41,750 --> 00:35:40,320 as it gives you some sense that you can 1061 00:35:43,109 --> 00:35:41,760 you feel confidence to go and do 1062 00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:43,119 something like that and that those are 1063 00:35:47,589 --> 00:35:45,520 stories now i will sell my soul and work 1064 00:35:49,109 --> 00:35:47,599 and do commercial work of course but 1065 00:35:50,630 --> 00:35:49,119 when i write for the chaser and bust 1066 00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:50,640 cults or when i 1067 00:35:55,510 --> 00:35:52,400 um i'm telling stories like that on 1068 00:35:57,990 --> 00:35:55,520 community tv albeit to small audiences 1069 00:36:00,790 --> 00:35:58,000 that's what i personally have got out of 1070 00:36:02,790 --> 00:36:00,800 the big brother experience now listeners 1071 00:36:05,109 --> 00:36:02,800 can actually see those episodes of dare 1072 00:36:06,710 --> 00:36:05,119 i ask they're all online 1073 00:36:09,349 --> 00:36:06,720 do we have the website oh you just you 1074 00:36:10,950 --> 00:36:09,359 just punch up deer i asked in google and 1075 00:36:13,270 --> 00:36:10,960 it would come up and well i've got a 1076 00:36:14,870 --> 00:36:13,280 website just my name timonero.com and i 1077 00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:14,880 tried to put links up to stuff that i'm 1078 00:36:18,870 --> 00:36:16,560 doing there and really 1079 00:36:20,150 --> 00:36:18,880 i do write and i do you know throw up 1080 00:36:21,270 --> 00:36:20,160 the odd thing which might be interesting 1081 00:36:23,109 --> 00:36:21,280 to people certainly there's a link there 1082 00:36:25,109 --> 00:36:23,119 to my chaser blogs that 1083 00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:25,119 um where i did a great body of work 1084 00:36:28,710 --> 00:36:26,640 there that i'm very proud of thanks very 1085 00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:28,720 much for joining us today tim no problem 1086 00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:41,750 this is eugenie scott national center 1087 00:36:48,870 --> 00:36:44,800 for science education you can find us at 1088 00:36:52,790 --> 00:36:50,550 come see us if you want to know anything 1089 00:36:55,430 --> 00:36:52,800 about the creationism and evolution 1090 00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:55,440 conflict in the united states or 1091 00:36:59,270 --> 00:36:57,280 moors the pity internationally these 1092 00:37:02,390 --> 00:36:59,280 days we are clearing house for 1093 00:37:04,310 --> 00:37:02,400 information on this vexing but certainly 1094 00:37:11,109 --> 00:37:04,320 very interesting problem 1095 00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:13,109 welcome to the token skeptic roundup of 1096 00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:15,280 sites blogs projects and activism out 1097 00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:16,079 there 1098 00:37:19,349 --> 00:37:17,440 firstly if you're a listener to the 1099 00:37:22,310 --> 00:37:19,359 skeptic zone podcast we're running a 1100 00:37:23,829 --> 00:37:22,320 survey on how we've been doing so far 1101 00:37:26,390 --> 00:37:23,839 head to our blog at 1102 00:37:27,589 --> 00:37:26,400 skepticzone.wordpress.com 1103 00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:27,599 and give us some feedback and 1104 00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:30,720 suggestions on how 2009 went 1105 00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:32,400 the young australian skeptics blog 1106 00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:34,480 anthology has concluded and we're 1107 00:37:38,470 --> 00:37:36,640 currently reviewing over 100 blog post 1108 00:37:40,790 --> 00:37:38,480 entries many thanks to those who've 1109 00:37:42,550 --> 00:37:40,800 submitted sites and we'll be producing 1110 00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:42,560 this at the end of january after 1111 00:37:47,670 --> 00:37:45,040 contacting the finalists in the meantime 1112 00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:47,680 check out the 2009 open laboratory 1113 00:37:51,990 --> 00:37:49,760 anthology which is in production over at 1114 00:37:54,069 --> 00:37:52,000 scienceblogs.com 1115 00:37:56,950 --> 00:37:54,079 leo iguay is the director for the center 1116 00:37:58,630 --> 00:37:56,960 for inquiry in nigeria and executive 1117 00:38:00,790 --> 00:37:58,640 director of the nigerian humanist 1118 00:38:02,710 --> 00:38:00,800 movement who has battled against female 1119 00:38:05,430 --> 00:38:02,720 genital mutilation the oppression of 1120 00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:05,440 women in africa witch hunters and all 1121 00:38:09,109 --> 00:38:07,680 manners of dangerous paranormal belief 1122 00:38:10,790 --> 00:38:09,119 in that continent 1123 00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:10,800 he has written numerous articles for the 1124 00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:12,720 australian skeptic magazine for a number 1125 00:38:15,990 --> 00:38:14,240 of years 1126 00:38:18,230 --> 00:38:16,000 iguay accused a man of raping a 1127 00:38:20,230 --> 00:38:18,240 ten-year-old girl in nigeria and this 1128 00:38:22,069 --> 00:38:20,240 man has turned around and accused igwe 1129 00:38:24,870 --> 00:38:22,079 and his father of murdering another 1130 00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:24,880 person this is apparently a false charge 1131 00:38:28,950 --> 00:38:26,880 since the body was examined and found to 1132 00:38:29,990 --> 00:38:28,960 have died due to hiv aids-related 1133 00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,000 illness 1134 00:38:35,270 --> 00:38:32,480 igue was arrested temporarily imprisoned 1135 00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:35,280 on this charge and then let out on bail 1136 00:38:38,790 --> 00:38:36,960 the most recent update is that the man 1137 00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:38,800 who has been making all the problems for 1138 00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:40,720 leo and his family and made the 1139 00:38:44,950 --> 00:38:42,960 allegations didn't even turn up for a 1140 00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:44,960 hearing this week and the case will 1141 00:38:49,109 --> 00:38:46,720 continue with someone having to face 1142 00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:49,119 charges for either murder or for making 1143 00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:50,960 a false statement 1144 00:38:56,510 --> 00:38:53,040 the think humanism forum and the blog 1145 00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:56,520 site of uk author stephen law found at 1146 00:39:00,470 --> 00:38:58,079 thinkhumanism.com and 1147 00:39:02,470 --> 00:39:00,480 stephenlord.blogspot.com 1148 00:39:04,069 --> 00:39:02,480 have been updating on the case and what 1149 00:39:06,069 --> 00:39:04,079 can be done to help 1150 00:39:08,069 --> 00:39:06,079 suggestions include writing to amnesty 1151 00:39:10,230 --> 00:39:08,079 international and making sure that the 1152 00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:10,240 authorities in nigeria are aware of the 1153 00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:12,160 international concern 1154 00:39:16,950 --> 00:39:14,720 contacting local nigerian embassies is 1155 00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:16,960 also suggested and head to 1156 00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:19,280 stevenlaw.blogspot.com 1157 00:39:23,990 --> 00:39:21,280 for regular updates 1158 00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:24,000 the 1023 campaign is a national movement 1159 00:39:28,790 --> 00:39:26,160 in the uk headed by the merseyside 1160 00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:28,800 skeptic society they are aiming to raise 1161 00:39:33,109 --> 00:39:31,359 awareness of homeopathy a multi-million 1162 00:39:35,829 --> 00:39:33,119 pound industry based upon a long 1163 00:39:37,589 --> 00:39:35,839 discredited 18th century ritual selling 1164 00:39:39,510 --> 00:39:37,599 remedies to the public which have no 1165 00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:39,520 scientific basis and no credible 1166 00:39:42,790 --> 00:39:41,119 evidence for their efficacy beyond the 1167 00:39:44,470 --> 00:39:42,800 placebo effect 1168 00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:44,480 we'll be featuring more on the campaign 1169 00:39:49,310 --> 00:39:46,560 on the skeptic zone later this month 1170 00:39:51,430 --> 00:39:49,320 head to their official site at 1171 00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:51,440 1023.org dot uk 1172 00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:53,440 in order to read about their project and 1173 00:39:57,910 --> 00:39:55,680 their most recent campaign an open 1174 00:39:59,910 --> 00:39:57,920 letter to alliance boots 1175 00:40:02,150 --> 00:39:59,920 the grassroots skeptic site continues to 1176 00:40:04,790 --> 00:40:02,160 work on updating links to blogs media 1177 00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:04,800 sites and initiatives by skeptics and 1178 00:40:08,950 --> 00:40:06,640 now they are starting a speaker's 1179 00:40:11,030 --> 00:40:08,960 database head over to the grassroots 1180 00:40:12,950 --> 00:40:11,040 skeptic site over the coming weeks to 1181 00:40:14,790 --> 00:40:12,960 contribute more to their database and 1182 00:40:17,190 --> 00:40:14,800 help get more information on good 1183 00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:17,200 presenters for conferences lectures and 1184 00:40:21,829 --> 00:40:20,000 panels that could very well be you so 1185 00:40:22,829 --> 00:40:21,839 give feedback and check out their site 1186 00:40:24,470 --> 00:40:22,839 at 1187 00:40:27,430 --> 00:40:24,480 ohioskeptic.com 1188 00:40:29,510 --> 00:40:27,440 forward slash grassroots skeptics 1189 00:40:30,950 --> 00:40:29,520 finally a new podcast is out called the 1190 00:40:32,470 --> 00:40:30,960 token skeptic 1191 00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:32,480 you can hear me talk weekly about 1192 00:40:36,550 --> 00:40:34,560 paranormal beliefs pseudoscience 1193 00:40:39,030 --> 00:40:36,560 superstitions and science at 1194 00:40:40,550 --> 00:40:39,040 tokenskeptic tokenskeptic.org 1195 00:40:42,470 --> 00:40:40,560 please remember if you'd like to have 1196 00:40:44,710 --> 00:40:42,480 your site or your project foregrounded 1197 00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:44,720 on the skeptic zone podcast write in to 1198 00:40:58,309 --> 00:40:46,240 us at the official site at 1199 00:41:03,990 --> 00:41:01,510 the page museum is located at the rancho 1200 00:41:05,109 --> 00:41:04,000 la brea tar pits in the heart of los 1201 00:41:07,349 --> 00:41:05,119 angeles 1202 00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:07,359 rancho la brea is one of the world's 1203 00:41:13,109 --> 00:41:10,720 most famous fossil localities recognized 1204 00:41:16,150 --> 00:41:13,119 for having the largest and most diverse 1205 00:41:18,069 --> 00:41:16,160 assemblage of extinct ice age plants and 1206 00:41:20,470 --> 00:41:18,079 animals in the world 1207 00:41:23,510 --> 00:41:20,480 visitors can learn about los angeles as 1208 00:41:25,990 --> 00:41:23,520 it was between ten thousand and forty 1209 00:41:29,270 --> 00:41:26,000 thousand years ago during the last ice 1210 00:41:32,069 --> 00:41:29,280 age when animals such as sabretooth cats 1211 00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:32,079 and mammoths roamed the los angeles 1212 00:41:37,750 --> 00:41:35,359 basin on a fine sunny los angeles day 1213 00:41:40,470 --> 00:41:37,760 brian dunning from the skeptoid podcast 1214 00:41:48,069 --> 00:41:40,480 and i drove up from the orange county to 1215 00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:50,390 brian dunning and i have driven up to 1216 00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:52,960 los angeles and we've come to the la 1217 00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:54,960 brea tar pits 1218 00:41:59,349 --> 00:41:57,040 and we're making a big walk around the 1219 00:42:01,190 --> 00:41:59,359 the open-air pit are there more brian 1220 00:42:02,790 --> 00:42:01,200 there are there are several more it's 1221 00:42:04,309 --> 00:42:02,800 been a while since i've been here but 1222 00:42:06,309 --> 00:42:04,319 most of the pits are not full of water 1223 00:42:08,470 --> 00:42:06,319 like this one they're they're more of 1224 00:42:09,750 --> 00:42:08,480 active digs and you can actually see 1225 00:42:10,550 --> 00:42:09,760 sometimes there's actually people down 1226 00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:10,560 there 1227 00:42:14,870 --> 00:42:13,839 doing the actual digging and uh 1228 00:42:17,109 --> 00:42:14,880 this one 1229 00:42:19,510 --> 00:42:17,119 this largest one that's in front is just 1230 00:42:21,990 --> 00:42:19,520 uh it's filled with rain water it's 1231 00:42:23,510 --> 00:42:22,000 quite large it used to be an uh a quarry 1232 00:42:25,349 --> 00:42:23,520 for asphalt 1233 00:42:27,190 --> 00:42:25,359 and so there's no there's no research 1234 00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:27,200 going on here it was all dug out long 1235 00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:29,520 ago early in the century 1236 00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:32,000 but uh amazingly i have 1237 00:42:37,190 --> 00:42:34,240 some asphalt and tar on my hands on my 1238 00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:37,200 knee yeah we uh walking around this it's 1239 00:42:40,630 --> 00:42:38,880 all fenced but uh 1240 00:42:43,270 --> 00:42:40,640 on the other side there's an area of the 1241 00:42:44,950 --> 00:42:43,280 ground which is oozing tar 1242 00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:44,960 yeah little bubbles coming right off of 1243 00:42:49,670 --> 00:42:47,200 methane it was very cool to see and you 1244 00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:49,680 had to um stick your finger in the tower 1245 00:42:52,550 --> 00:42:50,640 to just 1246 00:42:54,950 --> 00:42:52,560 well that's that's obligatory if you're 1247 00:42:57,270 --> 00:42:54,960 here you have to do at least that much 1248 00:42:59,190 --> 00:42:57,280 but it's a glorious day here in los 1249 00:43:00,790 --> 00:42:59,200 angeles it's the clear skies and warm 1250 00:43:02,390 --> 00:43:00,800 weather 1251 00:43:04,150 --> 00:43:02,400 and we're here to look at the 1252 00:43:07,190 --> 00:43:04,160 interesting things that they've 1253 00:43:08,790 --> 00:43:07,200 discovered in these famous tar pits and 1254 00:43:10,309 --> 00:43:08,800 there are models of 1255 00:43:12,550 --> 00:43:10,319 mastodons and 1256 00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:12,560 in distress on the other side as they 1257 00:43:16,390 --> 00:43:14,640 fall into the pit yeah 1258 00:43:19,109 --> 00:43:16,400 so for the people who might be slightly 1259 00:43:20,950 --> 00:43:19,119 confused as to what we're really talking 1260 00:43:24,950 --> 00:43:20,960 about these are 1261 00:43:28,069 --> 00:43:24,960 uh tarp hits when in very ancient times 1262 00:43:30,230 --> 00:43:28,079 creatures would wander in get stuck 1263 00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:30,240 sucked down and that's where they stayed 1264 00:43:34,230 --> 00:43:32,319 yeah the you know it's a it's a small 1265 00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:34,240 depressed lake area so it fills with 1266 00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:36,160 water and it looks like a nice little 1267 00:43:39,430 --> 00:43:37,920 lake to come in and stick your toe in 1268 00:43:41,589 --> 00:43:39,440 and have a drink and 1269 00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:41,599 once you stick your toe in you don't 1270 00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:43,839 pull your toe back out it's like very 1271 00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:45,599 skeptical podcasters who stick their 1272 00:43:50,309 --> 00:43:47,920 finger into the tires 1273 00:43:52,710 --> 00:43:50,319 yes and i was 1274 00:43:54,230 --> 00:43:52,720 i was captivated by the tar 1275 00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:54,240 i'm just bringing most of it with me 1276 00:43:57,430 --> 00:43:55,280 instead of 1277 00:43:59,109 --> 00:43:57,440 keeping leaving myself behind those 1278 00:44:00,790 --> 00:43:59,119 statues just on the ridge over there are 1279 00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:00,800 they more sloths those are those are 1280 00:44:04,390 --> 00:44:01,760 sloths 1281 00:44:05,750 --> 00:44:04,400 i'm starting to doubt my own 1282 00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:05,760 i think that might be a bear back there 1283 00:44:09,190 --> 00:44:07,040 that you pointed out but these are 1284 00:44:10,950 --> 00:44:09,200 definitely sloths they look like modern 1285 00:44:14,390 --> 00:44:10,960 sloths in a way 1286 00:44:17,829 --> 00:44:14,400 just just more so yes yes they're the 1287 00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:17,839 size of what are those the size of um 1288 00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:18,960 standing up 1289 00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:24,560 six or seven feet tall yeah 1290 00:44:27,910 --> 00:44:26,160 look where those little flags are oh 1291 00:44:30,069 --> 00:44:27,920 yeah 1292 00:44:32,710 --> 00:44:30,079 now i've come into a sort of a 1293 00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:32,720 viewing area it's a little 1294 00:44:36,550 --> 00:44:34,640 glassed area 1295 00:44:38,069 --> 00:44:36,560 we can look down into a pit that they're 1296 00:44:39,750 --> 00:44:38,079 excavating at the moment there's little 1297 00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:39,760 flags to indicate the bones they've 1298 00:44:44,309 --> 00:44:41,760 discovered here's a sign telling us what 1299 00:44:47,670 --> 00:44:44,319 the flags represent one is the uh 1300 00:44:50,309 --> 00:44:47,680 looks like the scapula of a dire wolf 1301 00:44:54,069 --> 00:44:50,319 a saber-toothed cat pelvis sabertooth 1302 00:44:56,150 --> 00:44:54,079 cat scapula sabertooth cat femur 1303 00:44:58,069 --> 00:44:56,160 oh i see this is uh excavated somewhere 1304 00:44:58,870 --> 00:44:58,079 i was seven so i guess it's sort of just 1305 00:45:01,270 --> 00:44:58,880 um 1306 00:45:05,190 --> 00:45:01,280 left like this for 1307 00:45:08,069 --> 00:45:06,390 i don't know if it's active at the 1308 00:45:09,030 --> 00:45:08,079 moment 1309 00:45:11,910 --> 00:45:09,040 it 1310 00:45:13,750 --> 00:45:11,920 try and work down there 1311 00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:13,760 yeah behind us on the wall they've got 1312 00:45:16,230 --> 00:45:15,040 actually they've got the clothes of 1313 00:45:19,270 --> 00:45:16,240 people who work there and they're 1314 00:45:21,510 --> 00:45:19,280 covered with tarp look at this pit the 1315 00:45:23,109 --> 00:45:21,520 photograph of a pit with a lot of the 1316 00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:23,119 asphalt removed and a lot of the bones 1317 00:45:27,990 --> 00:45:26,400 exposed it's solid bones bones are upon 1318 00:45:36,710 --> 00:45:28,000 bones upon bones 1319 00:45:41,190 --> 00:45:39,510 wow this has been busy for a long time 1320 00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:41,200 look at the look at the water floating 1321 00:45:45,589 --> 00:45:43,920 on top of the asphalt yes 1322 00:45:48,150 --> 00:45:45,599 there's more gas coming up there i'd say 1323 00:45:51,670 --> 00:45:48,160 see those ripples 1324 00:45:57,030 --> 00:45:54,630 oh there's some more stuff fun facts 1325 00:45:59,190 --> 00:45:57,040 the car is not hot 1326 00:46:01,589 --> 00:45:59,200 we identify each fossil as we take it 1327 00:46:04,790 --> 00:46:01,599 out of the ground 1328 00:46:07,829 --> 00:46:04,800 currently the pit is at 15 feet deep 1329 00:46:09,430 --> 00:46:07,839 we do not find bones in liquid asphalt 1330 00:46:11,990 --> 00:46:09,440 interesting 1331 00:46:16,630 --> 00:46:12,000 the most common animal found is the dire 1332 00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:18,390 what smell i'm not sure what that means 1333 00:46:23,430 --> 00:46:20,079 yes asphalt will stain your clothes 1334 00:46:25,190 --> 00:46:23,440 that's a particular interest to me today 1335 00:46:28,230 --> 00:46:25,200 and then this is make sure you visit the 1336 00:46:30,950 --> 00:46:28,240 page museum okay uh all the fossils we 1337 00:46:32,390 --> 00:46:30,960 excavate go into the page of music 1338 00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:32,400 now there's an interesting one on the 1339 00:46:37,829 --> 00:46:34,720 side there no dinosaurs are found at the 1340 00:46:39,430 --> 00:46:37,839 potar pits dinosaurs died 65 million 1341 00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:39,440 years before 1342 00:46:44,309 --> 00:46:42,000 the tar pits were formed i recall when 1343 00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:44,319 jurassic park was in the theaters 1344 00:46:47,990 --> 00:46:46,400 and we went to the san diego zoo and 1345 00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:48,000 they said one of the most common 1346 00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:49,359 questions they were getting from 1347 00:46:54,230 --> 00:46:50,640 visitors is where do we see the 1348 00:46:59,910 --> 00:46:55,589 absolutely true 1349 00:47:04,309 --> 00:47:02,550 now we've entered the museum itself and 1350 00:47:06,550 --> 00:47:04,319 it's really nice brian because it's not 1351 00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:06,560 crowded i'm i'm amazed that it's not 1352 00:47:11,030 --> 00:47:08,640 crowded today it's a beautiful sunday 1353 00:47:12,550 --> 00:47:11,040 there's plenty of space to see all the 1354 00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:12,560 exhibitions here and we're standing in 1355 00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:13,760 front of 1356 00:47:18,550 --> 00:47:15,760 a giant sloth 1357 00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:18,560 the skeleton off 1358 00:47:28,870 --> 00:47:25,430 weighed 1500 pounds that's a big boy a 1359 00:47:32,710 --> 00:47:30,069 oh 1360 00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:32,720 interesting look at look at his feet 1361 00:47:39,270 --> 00:47:35,839 he actually walks on his ankles 1362 00:47:41,190 --> 00:47:39,280 the same as humans do and 1363 00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:41,200 that's generally a characteristic found 1364 00:47:45,030 --> 00:47:43,680 of tree dwelling animals 1365 00:47:47,430 --> 00:47:45,040 usually most animals run on their 1366 00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:47,440 fingers on their toes yeah yeah 1367 00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:53,109 looks like some sort of distorted cow um 1368 00:47:57,190 --> 00:47:55,200 it's like a cross between a triceratops 1369 00:47:59,910 --> 00:47:57,200 and it's a bison yeah 1370 00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:59,920 but the the the spine is incredibly 1371 00:48:03,430 --> 00:48:01,200 exaggerated 1372 00:48:04,870 --> 00:48:03,440 i was thinking 1373 00:48:07,030 --> 00:48:04,880 that looks like the cow from hell 1374 00:48:10,069 --> 00:48:07,040 doesn't it 1375 00:48:11,829 --> 00:48:10,079 and that thing wandered into the tarpitz 1376 00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:11,839 whoops that must have been quite a scene 1377 00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:13,200 yeah 1378 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,589 oh 1379 00:48:25,109 --> 00:48:23,270 what brian's trying to do now is it's an 1380 00:48:27,270 --> 00:48:25,119 interesting display where you can feel 1381 00:48:31,990 --> 00:48:27,280 the force of the tar 1382 00:48:35,190 --> 00:48:33,510 have these pistons going down into the 1383 00:48:36,069 --> 00:48:35,200 tar and you can pull up on them and push 1384 00:48:37,910 --> 00:48:36,079 down 1385 00:48:39,510 --> 00:48:37,920 to see how sticky and dense the tar is 1386 00:48:41,510 --> 00:48:39,520 that's that's something else if you got 1387 00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:41,520 your foot stuck in this it would be uh 1388 00:48:49,190 --> 00:48:47,190 oh that one's that one's just almost 1389 00:48:52,950 --> 00:48:49,200 stuck like it's concrete 1390 00:48:56,870 --> 00:48:54,790 and as you might guess the wide 1391 00:48:58,870 --> 00:48:56,880 cylinders the thicker ones with the 1392 00:49:01,109 --> 00:48:58,880 greater surface area are much harder to 1393 00:49:02,470 --> 00:49:01,119 pull out than uh i see the small skinny 1394 00:49:03,589 --> 00:49:02,480 ones the small skinny ones come out 1395 00:49:05,030 --> 00:49:03,599 quite easily here 1396 00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:05,040 well relatively 1397 00:49:09,829 --> 00:49:07,520 two centimeters three 1398 00:49:11,190 --> 00:49:09,839 up and down no problem imagine a 1399 00:49:12,790 --> 00:49:11,200 mastodon 1400 00:49:13,829 --> 00:49:12,800 hoof foot 1401 00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:13,839 foot 1402 00:49:23,109 --> 00:49:19,440 stepping into that uh you're not getting 1403 00:49:26,950 --> 00:49:25,829 look at the size of this guy 1404 00:49:28,230 --> 00:49:26,960 oh 1405 00:49:29,589 --> 00:49:28,240 okay we're just walking over to the 1406 00:49:31,670 --> 00:49:29,599 other side of the room and behind the 1407 00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:31,680 sort of a petition which is come down 1408 00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:33,760 from the ceiling we go underneath 1409 00:49:36,790 --> 00:49:35,680 wow 1410 00:49:40,630 --> 00:49:36,800 it's a 1411 00:49:43,190 --> 00:49:40,640 it's one of them ryan 1412 00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:43,200 what the hell is this gigantic 1413 00:49:46,309 --> 00:49:45,359 let's just read what the sign says over 1414 00:49:48,069 --> 00:49:46,319 here 1415 00:49:50,230 --> 00:49:48,079 it's a mammoth yeah it's a mammoth 1416 00:49:51,990 --> 00:49:50,240 colombian mammal all right all right 1417 00:49:54,150 --> 00:49:52,000 that's why they call them mammoths 1418 00:49:55,510 --> 00:49:54,160 that's that is that's much larger than 1419 00:49:58,470 --> 00:49:55,520 an elephant 1420 00:50:01,030 --> 00:49:58,480 oh and then some look at his tusks 1421 00:50:03,109 --> 00:50:01,040 they're insane his tusks they stick out 1422 00:50:05,109 --> 00:50:03,119 uh what three meters 1423 00:50:06,630 --> 00:50:05,119 easily yeah and bend back yeah they've 1424 00:50:08,309 --> 00:50:06,640 been they're actually kind of knotted 1425 00:50:10,069 --> 00:50:08,319 together they uh 1426 00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:10,079 cross over each other 1427 00:50:13,510 --> 00:50:11,520 that would make them less useful i would 1428 00:50:15,589 --> 00:50:13,520 think for just about any purpose 1429 00:50:17,430 --> 00:50:15,599 but an elephant would only come up to 1430 00:50:19,190 --> 00:50:17,440 what 1431 00:50:22,069 --> 00:50:19,200 somewhere up the shoulder here 1432 00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:22,079 i'm sure yeah yeah i mean we're having 1433 00:50:24,829 --> 00:50:23,680 to crane our heads to look up to the top 1434 00:50:27,910 --> 00:50:24,839 of this this 1435 00:50:29,589 --> 00:50:27,920 beast it walks on its toes i could 1436 00:50:35,349 --> 00:50:29,599 easily walk underneath 1437 00:50:39,990 --> 00:50:37,510 so if you see something like this 1438 00:50:41,430 --> 00:50:40,000 that you really appreciate the scale 1439 00:50:42,950 --> 00:50:41,440 that's i would not want to be chased 1440 00:50:44,230 --> 00:50:42,960 around by this thing i'll tell you that 1441 00:50:46,470 --> 00:50:44,240 i'll tell you what though it's a lot of 1442 00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:46,480 meat there for neanderthal man 1443 00:50:50,230 --> 00:50:48,720 you can have a few steaks out of that 1444 00:50:52,230 --> 00:50:50,240 they they probably didn't need more than 1445 00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:52,240 one or two of these on board the ark to 1446 00:51:00,069 --> 00:50:58,630 what the hell is this 1447 00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:00,079 ah 1448 00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:02,880 here's our wall oh these are dire walls 1449 00:51:15,109 --> 00:51:12,710 how many we got across here we've got 1450 00:51:17,109 --> 00:51:15,119 about six across about two four six 1451 00:51:18,870 --> 00:51:17,119 eight ten twelve fourteen sixteen 1452 00:51:21,589 --> 00:51:18,880 eighteen high 1453 00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:21,599 uh and uh four walls that's all panel 1454 00:51:24,549 --> 00:51:23,040 but now there are more here there's 1455 00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:24,559 another row oh 1456 00:51:27,510 --> 00:51:26,160 someone calculate that 1457 00:51:29,589 --> 00:51:27,520 thank you 1458 00:51:32,309 --> 00:51:29,599 there are hundreds of them 1459 00:51:33,910 --> 00:51:32,319 hundreds of these poor wolves over the 1460 00:51:35,670 --> 00:51:33,920 thousands of years wandered into this 1461 00:51:38,230 --> 00:51:35,680 pit 1462 00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:38,240 oh it's a 404 of them 1463 00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:39,520 there you go 1464 00:51:46,390 --> 00:51:42,480 more than 1600 wolves whose remains have 1465 00:51:49,750 --> 00:51:48,069 oh i see they attempted to feed on 1466 00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:49,760 animals trapped in the asphalt and 1467 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,870 just walk around this side 1468 00:52:02,230 --> 00:52:01,349 california sabretooth there it is 1469 00:52:06,630 --> 00:52:02,240 wow 1470 00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:08,390 that's why they call them saboteurs look 1471 00:52:12,950 --> 00:52:10,800 at the size of those teeth 1472 00:52:15,270 --> 00:52:12,960 it says he probably ambushed the larger 1473 00:52:16,630 --> 00:52:15,280 and slower animals such as ground sloths 1474 00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:16,640 and young man why would he have to 1475 00:52:20,230 --> 00:52:18,720 ambush them he could simply just walk 1476 00:52:21,670 --> 00:52:20,240 right up and chase them down and grab 1477 00:52:23,349 --> 00:52:21,680 them by the throat and then that's the 1478 00:52:25,190 --> 00:52:23,359 end of it 1479 00:52:26,710 --> 00:52:25,200 ah now this is interesting we've walked 1480 00:52:28,710 --> 00:52:26,720 over here to a large 1481 00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:28,720 looking into a large room 1482 00:52:32,549 --> 00:52:30,720 uh it's all glass so we can see straight 1483 00:52:33,910 --> 00:52:32,559 into it looks like a fishbowl 1484 00:52:38,309 --> 00:52:33,920 and there are a couple of scientists in 1485 00:52:43,190 --> 00:52:41,030 this is zed's left tusk they've got what 1486 00:52:44,710 --> 00:52:43,200 appears to be an entire tusk from a 1487 00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:44,720 mammoth 1488 00:52:50,150 --> 00:52:47,520 wrapped in plaster yeah 1489 00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:50,160 it's marked this is zed's left tusk 1490 00:52:53,349 --> 00:52:51,839 so apparently somewhere there's a right 1491 00:52:56,549 --> 00:52:53,359 tusk and 1492 00:52:59,030 --> 00:52:56,559 oh here's zed's femur yeah 1493 00:53:01,190 --> 00:52:59,040 these are all on display just behind the 1494 00:53:01,990 --> 00:53:01,200 scientists here and all the workers who 1495 00:53:03,990 --> 00:53:02,000 are 1496 00:53:05,349 --> 00:53:04,000 scraping away little bits of tar i guess 1497 00:53:07,030 --> 00:53:05,359 and then towards the background there's 1498 00:53:08,549 --> 00:53:07,040 catalogs and there's animals and there's 1499 00:53:10,150 --> 00:53:08,559 all sorts of shelves with bones 1500 00:53:12,549 --> 00:53:10,160 everywhere let's 1501 00:53:15,349 --> 00:53:12,559 walk around and on display for us here 1502 00:53:16,870 --> 00:53:15,359 lots of lots of bones and little bits 1503 00:53:18,390 --> 00:53:16,880 and pieces they're working on jars and 1504 00:53:20,790 --> 00:53:18,400 things 1505 00:53:22,150 --> 00:53:20,800 small oh it says mouse toe bone 1506 00:53:24,390 --> 00:53:22,160 look at that 1507 00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:24,400 that's there's that that is a mouse's 1508 00:53:28,630 --> 00:53:26,880 toe bone and it's the size of a sliver 1509 00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:28,640 you might pull out of your finger yeah i 1510 00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:30,240 don't know how they would actually find 1511 00:53:34,549 --> 00:53:32,400 it oh i see look mouse turbone that's 1512 00:53:36,549 --> 00:53:34,559 probably a modern mouse i don't know 1513 00:53:38,150 --> 00:53:36,559 small mouse toe bone which is very 1514 00:53:39,349 --> 00:53:38,160 barely visible 1515 00:53:41,190 --> 00:53:39,359 mammoth 1516 00:53:43,270 --> 00:53:41,200 which is the size of a 1517 00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:43,280 big potato yeah 1518 00:53:49,510 --> 00:53:47,270 leaving these 1519 00:53:51,750 --> 00:53:49,520 poor wretches working behind the glass 1520 00:53:54,390 --> 00:53:51,760 for all the seat we've walked over to 1521 00:53:57,109 --> 00:53:54,400 another um 1522 00:53:59,430 --> 00:53:57,119 display of a robot 1523 00:54:02,069 --> 00:53:59,440 uh sabretooth tiger 1524 00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:02,079 attacking a robot sloth 1525 00:54:05,030 --> 00:54:03,359 kind of reminiscent of something you 1526 00:54:08,150 --> 00:54:05,040 might see at the creation museum isn't 1527 00:54:10,069 --> 00:54:08,160 it kind of that level of easiness 1528 00:54:26,150 --> 00:54:10,079 it is a bit cheesy but it's good to see 1529 00:54:29,670 --> 00:54:27,829 this is desiree shell host of 1530 00:54:31,069 --> 00:54:29,680 skeptically speaking 1531 00:54:33,190 --> 00:54:31,079 check out our website at 1532 00:54:37,829 --> 00:54:33,200 skepticallyspeaking.com and listen to us 1533 00:54:39,030 --> 00:54:37,839 live on cjsr 88.5 fm in edmonton alberta 1534 00:54:45,670 --> 00:54:39,040 canada 1535 00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:48,710 join us now for drinking skeptically in 1536 00:55:01,109 --> 00:54:58,790 all right buddy here we go 1537 00:55:02,630 --> 00:55:01,119 and with that groovy groovy music in the 1538 00:55:07,109 --> 00:55:02,640 background folks it's welcome to the 1539 00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:07,119 think tank for 2010 hooray hey 1540 00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:09,680 cheers oh that's good today it's water 1541 00:55:13,589 --> 00:55:11,920 folks i must admit it's not beer or 1542 00:55:16,150 --> 00:55:13,599 champagne or 1543 00:55:17,589 --> 00:55:16,160 margaritas or whatever else no excuse me 1544 00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:17,599 it's water because today in sydney it 1545 00:55:35,349 --> 00:55:33,910 please make your way to the reception 1546 00:55:36,790 --> 00:55:35,359 and you know we remind you i think 1547 00:55:38,710 --> 00:55:36,800 that's better than a bus that's better 1548 00:55:43,670 --> 00:55:38,720 well i have to say that we remind me of 1549 00:55:47,510 --> 00:55:45,910 you're looking to the ceiling 1550 00:55:50,390 --> 00:55:47,520 looking to the ceiling with me today in 1551 00:55:52,069 --> 00:55:50,400 the think tank it's dr rachie hi dr h hi 1552 00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:52,079 richard and you walked here tonight 1553 00:55:56,390 --> 00:55:54,480 didn't you i stupidly did 1554 00:55:59,190 --> 00:55:56,400 i'm still ready 1555 00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:59,200 joe benamu hello joe hi richard good to 1556 00:56:03,190 --> 00:56:00,880 see you again thank you and you were in 1557 00:56:05,670 --> 00:56:03,200 america too i was yeah once i got caught 1558 00:56:07,510 --> 00:56:05,680 in a blizzard it was oh lucky you today 1559 00:56:10,390 --> 00:56:07,520 i wish i was too 1560 00:56:11,270 --> 00:56:10,400 we have uh diane fisher hello dianne how 1561 00:56:12,950 --> 00:56:11,280 are you 1562 00:56:14,549 --> 00:56:12,960 i'm good i'm glad to be home again bit 1563 00:56:16,630 --> 00:56:14,559 jet lag still because i only got back 1564 00:56:19,589 --> 00:56:16,640 yesterday but it's good to be here and 1565 00:56:21,109 --> 00:56:19,599 uh iran segev hello hello run good to 1566 00:56:21,829 --> 00:56:21,119 see you again too 1567 00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:21,839 so 1568 00:56:28,549 --> 00:56:25,680 music in the background is because we've 1569 00:56:30,230 --> 00:56:28,559 lost our normal think tank room which 1570 00:56:31,910 --> 00:56:30,240 was sort of peering out through the the 1571 00:56:34,870 --> 00:56:31,920 glass doors at the moment it's no longer 1572 00:56:35,990 --> 00:56:34,880 storage for dead chairs 1573 00:56:37,829 --> 00:56:36,000 it's actually looking like a scene out 1574 00:56:40,630 --> 00:56:37,839 of the movie goodfellas or something 1575 00:56:44,069 --> 00:56:40,640 actually it is it's been turned into the 1576 00:56:45,829 --> 00:56:44,079 billiards room to saloon saloon 1577 00:56:48,069 --> 00:56:45,839 with a sign saying no children beyond 1578 00:56:50,150 --> 00:56:48,079 this point yeah and 1579 00:56:52,549 --> 00:56:50,160 there's like tables of 1580 00:56:54,870 --> 00:56:52,559 old fellas playing colors playing cards 1581 00:56:57,030 --> 00:56:54,880 and pool tables yeah the pool table so 1582 00:56:59,190 --> 00:56:57,040 there you go but we're out here just 1583 00:57:01,109 --> 00:56:59,200 near mama wong's restaurant where we've 1584 00:57:02,150 --> 00:57:01,119 been away where we just had a lovely 1585 00:57:04,150 --> 00:57:02,160 dinner 1586 00:57:05,589 --> 00:57:04,160 so let's get stuck into the think tank 1587 00:57:07,670 --> 00:57:05,599 for this year 1588 00:57:09,510 --> 00:57:07,680 excellent to be back again dr rayche 1589 00:57:10,789 --> 00:57:09,520 let's quickly kick off with a slight 1590 00:57:13,349 --> 00:57:10,799 correction 1591 00:57:15,589 --> 00:57:13,359 yes i have to make an apology to gold 1592 00:57:18,789 --> 00:57:15,599 from new zealand um because i 1593 00:57:21,030 --> 00:57:18,799 incorrectly said on episode number 61 1594 00:57:23,109 --> 00:57:21,040 which was um from our christmas party 1595 00:57:25,829 --> 00:57:23,119 yes australian skeptics christmas party 1596 00:57:27,349 --> 00:57:25,839 that kylie sturges set up the auckland 1597 00:57:29,829 --> 00:57:27,359 skeptics in the pub 1598 00:57:31,829 --> 00:57:29,839 now gold kindly sent me an email and to 1599 00:57:33,030 --> 00:57:31,839 let me know that actually kylie didn't 1600 00:57:35,589 --> 00:57:33,040 set it up 1601 00:57:37,990 --> 00:57:35,599 it was a number of new zealand skeptics 1602 00:57:40,390 --> 00:57:38,000 including himself who've set up skeptics 1603 00:57:42,309 --> 00:57:40,400 in the pub in all different parts of new 1604 00:57:43,990 --> 00:57:42,319 zealand including christchurch and 1605 00:57:45,589 --> 00:57:44,000 auckland 1606 00:57:47,750 --> 00:57:45,599 um i don't know why i thought that that 1607 00:57:49,670 --> 00:57:47,760 was kylie yeah i i don't know why either 1608 00:57:51,829 --> 00:57:49,680 i i think it was because carly was their 1609 00:57:54,549 --> 00:57:51,839 first guest or speaker or something like 1610 00:57:56,470 --> 00:57:54,559 that yeah but um yeah i just wanted to 1611 00:57:58,230 --> 00:57:56,480 make that correction and i also wanted 1612 00:58:00,789 --> 00:57:58,240 to point out and gold suggested we point 1613 00:58:03,589 --> 00:58:00,799 this out unlike alternative medicine we 1614 00:58:06,710 --> 00:58:03,599 are self-correcting 1615 00:58:08,950 --> 00:58:06,720 so i apologize and we made a mistake 1616 00:58:11,190 --> 00:58:08,960 oh little mistake i mean i'm sure they 1617 00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:11,200 understand um yes kylie was certainly 1618 00:58:14,630 --> 00:58:13,280 there and she recorded it 1619 00:58:15,910 --> 00:58:14,640 that's right yeah 1620 00:58:17,430 --> 00:58:15,920 and all our listeners in auckland get 1621 00:58:19,589 --> 00:58:17,440 along to skeptics in the pub and there's 1622 00:58:22,230 --> 00:58:19,599 a free plug for you you see oh so it's 1623 00:58:24,230 --> 00:58:22,240 all worked out 1624 00:58:25,190 --> 00:58:24,240 all right now what do you have for us dr 1625 00:58:27,430 --> 00:58:25,200 rachie 1626 00:58:28,950 --> 00:58:27,440 um all right let's kick off with some 1627 00:58:31,109 --> 00:58:28,960 some new stories that have happened in 1628 00:58:33,510 --> 00:58:31,119 australia over the break and also in the 1629 00:58:35,109 --> 00:58:33,520 last week or so 1630 00:58:37,589 --> 00:58:35,119 some of our australian listeners would 1631 00:58:40,470 --> 00:58:37,599 remember the story of tamar stitt now 1632 00:58:43,190 --> 00:58:40,480 she was a 10 year old girl who 1633 00:58:45,349 --> 00:58:43,200 had a rare form of liver cancer known as 1634 00:58:46,309 --> 00:58:45,359 hepatoblastoma 1635 00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:46,319 and 1636 00:58:50,470 --> 00:58:47,520 she was 1637 00:58:53,109 --> 00:58:50,480 in a story on a current affairs tv show 1638 00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:53,119 in australia recently 1639 00:58:57,349 --> 00:58:55,200 and she was the subject of this story 1640 00:59:00,150 --> 00:58:57,359 because her parents had decided that 1641 00:59:00,870 --> 00:59:00,160 they didn't want her to get chemotherapy 1642 00:59:02,789 --> 00:59:00,880 and 1643 00:59:06,630 --> 00:59:02,799 the hospital 1644 00:59:08,470 --> 00:59:06,640 um said that if she didn't get it she 1645 00:59:11,190 --> 00:59:08,480 would die and she would die a very 1646 00:59:13,190 --> 00:59:11,200 painful and long death uh and so that 1647 00:59:14,710 --> 00:59:13,200 her parents instead of um getting her 1648 00:59:16,829 --> 00:59:14,720 the treatment they actually smuggled her 1649 00:59:19,270 --> 00:59:16,839 out of australia to el 1650 00:59:21,030 --> 00:59:19,280 salvador and they were that's where she 1651 00:59:24,549 --> 00:59:21,040 was receiving alternative medicine in 1652 00:59:26,549 --> 00:59:24,559 the form of clay therapy and herbal tea 1653 00:59:27,589 --> 00:59:26,559 therapy is just basically putting clay 1654 00:59:29,589 --> 00:59:27,599 on the 1655 00:59:31,349 --> 00:59:29,599 mud yeah it was basically there's a red 1656 00:59:33,030 --> 00:59:31,359 clay that you'd find around her uncle's 1657 00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:33,040 home where she was staying in san 1658 00:59:38,150 --> 00:59:35,280 salvador the capital of el salvador 1659 00:59:40,309 --> 00:59:38,160 and twice a day for two hours at a time 1660 00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:40,319 they would her mother would wrap these 1661 00:59:45,109 --> 00:59:42,400 clay wraps around her torso 1662 00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:45,119 and this was her mum said 1663 00:59:48,870 --> 00:59:47,280 in the story that we saw a few months 1664 00:59:51,030 --> 00:59:48,880 ago knowing what we know about natural 1665 00:59:53,589 --> 00:59:51,040 therapies my first idea was to treat 1666 00:59:55,349 --> 00:59:53,599 tamar with that 1667 00:59:57,750 --> 00:59:55,359 she said that clay is basically the 1668 01:00:00,069 --> 00:59:57,760 right medicine for any kind of illness 1669 01:00:01,990 --> 01:00:00,079 it can cure anything it dries up 1670 01:00:05,190 --> 01:00:02,000 anything that is causing the illness in 1671 01:00:06,470 --> 01:00:05,200 your system all the toxics 1672 01:00:07,990 --> 01:00:06,480 so 1673 01:00:09,910 --> 01:00:08,000 what actually happened was there was a 1674 01:00:11,990 --> 01:00:09,920 team of oncologists at the prince 1675 01:00:13,829 --> 01:00:12,000 margaret children's hospital and they 1676 01:00:15,430 --> 01:00:13,839 decided they needed to seek a court 1677 01:00:17,109 --> 01:00:15,440 order to get 1678 01:00:19,270 --> 01:00:17,119 her parents to 1679 01:00:20,789 --> 01:00:19,280 in fact get this treatment 1680 01:00:22,630 --> 01:00:20,799 because 1681 01:00:25,190 --> 01:00:22,640 and part of their submission in an 1682 01:00:27,510 --> 01:00:25,200 affidavit to the court about her illness 1683 01:00:29,030 --> 01:00:27,520 if she didn't get chemo 1684 01:00:31,349 --> 01:00:29,040 was that she will suffer increasingly 1685 01:00:33,030 --> 01:00:31,359 from pain and she had nodules in her 1686 01:00:34,549 --> 01:00:33,040 throat cancerous nodules and they said 1687 01:00:36,950 --> 01:00:34,559 that they would cause obstruction of the 1688 01:00:38,470 --> 01:00:36,960 airways shortness of breath and air 1689 01:00:39,670 --> 01:00:38,480 hunger and she will feel as if she is 1690 01:00:41,829 --> 01:00:39,680 suffocating 1691 01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:41,839 that's how she would die so her parents 1692 01:00:45,109 --> 01:00:43,440 didn't believe that they didn't want her 1693 01:00:47,270 --> 01:00:45,119 to be forced to have this treatment even 1694 01:00:49,750 --> 01:00:47,280 though she only had a 50 to 60 chance of 1695 01:00:52,829 --> 01:00:49,760 survival anyway didn't the father have a 1696 01:00:58,470 --> 01:00:52,839 medical degree no no no no he's a 1697 01:01:01,829 --> 01:01:00,230 technician 1698 01:01:03,670 --> 01:01:01,839 i think he said he worked in an 1699 01:01:06,630 --> 01:01:03,680 operating theater in south africa wasn't 1700 01:01:07,430 --> 01:01:06,640 no no london yeah london oh okay yeah 1701 01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:07,440 yeah 1702 01:01:11,670 --> 01:01:09,760 he used to work at the royal marsden 1703 01:01:14,549 --> 01:01:11,680 cancer hospital in london 1704 01:01:15,750 --> 01:01:14,559 as a medical technician but in any case 1705 01:01:17,589 --> 01:01:15,760 um 1706 01:01:19,589 --> 01:01:17,599 just recently 1707 01:01:21,109 --> 01:01:19,599 this one of another current affairs show 1708 01:01:22,549 --> 01:01:21,119 in australia 1709 01:01:25,030 --> 01:01:22,559 ran their little promos for what's 1710 01:01:26,630 --> 01:01:25,040 coming up next week and i saw this when 1711 01:01:28,710 --> 01:01:26,640 i was in adelaide on christmas holidays 1712 01:01:30,069 --> 01:01:28,720 and one of the stories that they ran 1713 01:01:32,150 --> 01:01:30,079 showed tamar 1714 01:01:33,349 --> 01:01:32,160 and although i had the sound on mute a 1715 01:01:34,390 --> 01:01:33,359 friend of mine 1716 01:01:36,789 --> 01:01:34,400 saw that 1717 01:01:39,910 --> 01:01:36,799 preview and it said an update on tamar 1718 01:01:41,430 --> 01:01:39,920 and reporting on her death 1719 01:01:43,190 --> 01:01:41,440 now we didn't we tried to find 1720 01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:43,200 information about this so we did a 1721 01:01:47,510 --> 01:01:44,640 google search and we couldn't find 1722 01:01:49,910 --> 01:01:47,520 anything about her alleged death the 1723 01:01:52,789 --> 01:01:49,920 only thing that i could find was a 1724 01:01:55,990 --> 01:01:52,799 comment left on a news site which was 1725 01:01:58,549 --> 01:01:56,000 dated the 31st of december 2009 which 1726 01:02:00,150 --> 01:01:58,559 said that tamar died a month ago in el 1727 01:02:01,750 --> 01:02:00,160 salvador 1728 01:02:04,069 --> 01:02:01,760 towards the end the mother was taking 1729 01:02:06,069 --> 01:02:04,079 her for chemotherapy but it was too late 1730 01:02:08,390 --> 01:02:06,079 her death was reported on the news here 1731 01:02:12,230 --> 01:02:08,400 meaning el salvador two days ago the 1732 01:02:14,069 --> 01:02:12,240 hospital in el salvador has confirmed it 1733 01:02:15,589 --> 01:02:14,079 so it's interesting because 1734 01:02:17,990 --> 01:02:15,599 although we can't find any official 1735 01:02:20,230 --> 01:02:18,000 notification of it it seems as if she 1736 01:02:22,630 --> 01:02:20,240 may have passed away which is obviously 1737 01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:22,640 very tragic considering that 1738 01:02:26,069 --> 01:02:24,240 her parents were absolutely convinced 1739 01:02:28,470 --> 01:02:26,079 that this treatment would and why 1740 01:02:29,750 --> 01:02:28,480 haven't the current affairs program 1741 01:02:31,270 --> 01:02:29,760 covered well this is the weird thing 1742 01:02:33,430 --> 01:02:31,280 sean the blogger naught he's a friend of 1743 01:02:35,270 --> 01:02:33,440 ours on twitter and also an a very 1744 01:02:36,549 --> 01:02:35,280 well-known atheist blogger he lives in 1745 01:02:38,789 --> 01:02:36,559 adelaide too 1746 01:02:42,309 --> 01:02:38,799 and he saw these promos run and another 1747 01:02:44,710 --> 01:02:42,319 guy who is a friend of ours from the um 1748 01:02:46,950 --> 01:02:44,720 podcast called reality check 1749 01:02:48,470 --> 01:02:46,960 he sent me an email and he said he'd 1750 01:02:50,069 --> 01:02:48,480 been in touch with the journalist who 1751 01:02:52,470 --> 01:02:50,079 was going to be doing the story on today 1752 01:02:54,630 --> 01:02:52,480 tonight and they confirmed to him that 1753 01:02:56,710 --> 01:02:54,640 yes she had passed away but then all of 1754 01:02:57,990 --> 01:02:56,720 a sudden the stories disappeared so 1755 01:02:59,990 --> 01:02:58,000 nobody knows if it was actually 1756 01:03:01,910 --> 01:03:00,000 broadcast or it wasn't it wasn't 1757 01:03:04,230 --> 01:03:01,920 broadcast as far as we can ascertain 1758 01:03:05,750 --> 01:03:04,240 because just as an aside before i left 1759 01:03:07,829 --> 01:03:05,760 for my trip on the states i set my 1760 01:03:09,270 --> 01:03:07,839 recorder up to record every episode of 1761 01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:09,280 today tonight 1762 01:03:13,430 --> 01:03:11,440 when i was away yeah we've did the same 1763 01:03:15,109 --> 01:03:13,440 but the adelaide show is sometimes 1764 01:03:16,789 --> 01:03:15,119 slightly different 1765 01:03:18,069 --> 01:03:16,799 to the sydney show although we had 1766 01:03:19,670 --> 01:03:18,079 people watching it in adelaide and 1767 01:03:21,190 --> 01:03:19,680 people watching it in sydney i've since 1768 01:03:23,349 --> 01:03:21,200 been to the adelaide today tonight 1769 01:03:25,109 --> 01:03:23,359 website and search for tomorrow there's 1770 01:03:27,109 --> 01:03:25,119 nothing there what about i mean they 1771 01:03:33,510 --> 01:03:27,119 were from perth weren't they so wouldn't 1772 01:03:36,950 --> 01:03:35,430 i've googled extensively and i can't 1773 01:03:39,270 --> 01:03:36,960 find anything and as i said the only 1774 01:03:40,309 --> 01:03:39,280 thing i can find is this comment on a if 1775 01:03:41,670 --> 01:03:40,319 uh 1776 01:03:43,910 --> 01:03:41,680 if our listeners 1777 01:03:46,309 --> 01:03:43,920 know anything or have a bit of inside 1778 01:03:48,390 --> 01:03:46,319 information about this or can help us 1779 01:03:52,390 --> 01:03:48,400 drop us a note we'd appreciate it 1780 01:03:54,870 --> 01:03:52,400 but speaking of of cancer and cures iran 1781 01:03:56,309 --> 01:03:54,880 you have a story on that don't you yes 1782 01:03:57,190 --> 01:03:56,319 absolutely 1783 01:04:07,029 --> 01:03:57,200 the 1784 01:04:08,470 --> 01:04:07,039 um a saint 1785 01:04:09,430 --> 01:04:08,480 and um 1786 01:04:17,990 --> 01:04:09,440 the 1787 01:04:20,950 --> 01:04:18,000 apparently 1788 01:04:21,990 --> 01:04:20,960 lung cancer with the metastases in the 1789 01:04:24,470 --> 01:04:22,000 brain 1790 01:04:27,430 --> 01:04:24,480 in 93. 1791 01:04:28,950 --> 01:04:27,440 now until until a few days ago no no 1792 01:04:30,870 --> 01:04:28,960 information was known about any of these 1793 01:04:32,870 --> 01:04:30,880 cases about these cases apart from those 1794 01:04:35,029 --> 01:04:32,880 sketchy um 1795 01:04:38,390 --> 01:04:35,039 details that i've just given but a 1796 01:04:40,549 --> 01:04:38,400 couple of days ago the woman who is the 1797 01:04:41,829 --> 01:04:40,559 the person who recovered in the second 1798 01:04:43,510 --> 01:04:41,839 miracle 1799 01:04:45,990 --> 01:04:43,520 was interviewed 1800 01:04:47,190 --> 01:04:46,000 and she gave some details 1801 01:04:50,150 --> 01:04:47,200 i must say 1802 01:04:52,390 --> 01:04:50,160 not a lot she basically she said she was 1803 01:04:54,150 --> 01:04:52,400 diagnosed with lung cancer with brain 1804 01:04:55,589 --> 01:04:54,160 cancer 1805 01:04:57,829 --> 01:04:55,599 she was 1806 01:05:00,150 --> 01:04:57,839 given a couple of day a couple of 1807 01:05:02,870 --> 01:05:00,160 weeks or months to live not a lot 1808 01:05:04,470 --> 01:05:02,880 and she was told by her doctors that 1809 01:05:09,029 --> 01:05:04,480 she couldn't be cured 1810 01:05:09,750 --> 01:05:09,039 and that's when she prompted by friends 1811 01:05:11,349 --> 01:05:09,760 she 1812 01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:11,359 was given a picture of mary mccallup and 1813 01:05:14,230 --> 01:05:12,880 they prayed 1814 01:05:16,309 --> 01:05:14,240 um just 1815 01:05:17,670 --> 01:05:16,319 what during what she thought were her 1816 01:05:20,150 --> 01:05:17,680 final weeks 1817 01:05:22,630 --> 01:05:20,160 and lo and behold uh two months later 1818 01:05:24,870 --> 01:05:22,640 she started becoming better and 1819 01:05:26,870 --> 01:05:24,880 eventually she recovered and now 17 1820 01:05:28,309 --> 01:05:26,880 years later she's still alive 1821 01:05:30,230 --> 01:05:28,319 but there's obviously lots of questions 1822 01:05:32,069 --> 01:05:30,240 that can be asked about this 1823 01:05:34,710 --> 01:05:32,079 we don't know for example 1824 01:05:36,950 --> 01:05:34,720 about whether the diagnosis was made 1825 01:05:39,349 --> 01:05:36,960 using imaging only which 1826 01:05:41,510 --> 01:05:39,359 can be sometimes very misleading i i 1827 01:05:42,230 --> 01:05:41,520 know i know a case very close to me 1828 01:05:45,349 --> 01:05:42,240 where 1829 01:05:47,589 --> 01:05:45,359 um it was every it was basically 1830 01:05:49,829 --> 01:05:47,599 certain that there was a brain tumor it 1831 01:05:52,710 --> 01:05:49,839 turned out to be something else when the 1832 01:05:55,190 --> 01:05:52,720 brain was when the skull was opened um 1833 01:05:57,829 --> 01:05:55,200 and these things happen all the time 1834 01:05:59,270 --> 01:05:57,839 um we don't know how the diagnosis was 1835 01:06:01,589 --> 01:05:59,280 made we don't know whether she was given 1836 01:06:05,270 --> 01:06:01,599 any other treatment or not 1837 01:06:08,309 --> 01:06:05,280 we just very sketchy details um 1838 01:06:10,390 --> 01:06:08,319 in the end even if she was let's assume 1839 01:06:13,349 --> 01:06:10,400 that she wasn't given any treatment 1840 01:06:16,710 --> 01:06:13,359 all that she was given was 1841 01:06:19,109 --> 01:06:16,720 prayer by her and her friends 1842 01:06:21,109 --> 01:06:19,119 why is it mary mckillop who is 1843 01:06:21,990 --> 01:06:21,119 responsible 1844 01:06:23,430 --> 01:06:22,000 uh 1845 01:06:25,270 --> 01:06:23,440 first of all was god not paying 1846 01:06:26,549 --> 01:06:25,280 attention that he needed mary mckillop 1847 01:06:29,190 --> 01:06:26,559 to prod him 1848 01:06:33,990 --> 01:06:30,549 did 1849 01:06:35,910 --> 01:06:34,000 have to go through the misery of having 1850 01:06:38,789 --> 01:06:35,920 cancer and almost dying 1851 01:06:40,710 --> 01:06:38,799 and then pray and hope that mary phillip 1852 01:06:42,789 --> 01:06:40,720 would pay attention 1853 01:06:44,710 --> 01:06:42,799 um maybe it could be somebody else not 1854 01:06:46,950 --> 01:06:44,720 mary mckillop i mean surely lots of 1855 01:06:49,029 --> 01:06:46,960 people have been praying for her she was 1856 01:06:50,630 --> 01:06:49,039 a churchgoer surely lots of people would 1857 01:06:52,150 --> 01:06:50,640 have prayed for her maybe not all of 1858 01:06:53,589 --> 01:06:52,160 them prayed to mary michelle and maybe 1859 01:06:55,750 --> 01:06:53,599 with somebody else who helped maybe it 1860 01:06:57,270 --> 01:06:55,760 was god directly without being prodded 1861 01:06:58,950 --> 01:06:57,280 not to mention all the people that the 1862 01:07:00,870 --> 01:06:58,960 millions of people worldwide who pray 1863 01:07:02,630 --> 01:07:00,880 every day for the sick 1864 01:07:05,349 --> 01:07:02,640 yes yeah just generally for the sick 1865 01:07:06,710 --> 01:07:05,359 days yes not specifically yeah but i i 1866 01:07:08,309 --> 01:07:06,720 liked what you mentioned earlier when we 1867 01:07:11,589 --> 01:07:08,319 were talking about this that somebody 1868 01:07:15,829 --> 01:07:11,599 said on some forum that um she has mary 1869 01:07:18,230 --> 01:07:15,839 michelle died in 1909 i think um that's 1870 01:07:21,190 --> 01:07:18,240 just over 100 years ago 1871 01:07:23,190 --> 01:07:21,200 there's two miracles during that time 1872 01:07:24,549 --> 01:07:23,200 and what was it he said if if a doctor 1873 01:07:27,270 --> 01:07:24,559 had that kind of success rate that 1874 01:07:28,710 --> 01:07:27,280 they'd be struck off with 1875 01:07:31,510 --> 01:07:28,720 that was ready on twitter i can't 1876 01:07:33,190 --> 01:07:31,520 remember yeah so that that's a very very 1877 01:07:35,670 --> 01:07:33,200 poor hit rate and also i would like to 1878 01:07:37,510 --> 01:07:35,680 see mary nicola i i have um i have a 1879 01:07:39,750 --> 01:07:37,520 friend who is missing a couple of 1880 01:07:41,910 --> 01:07:39,760 fingers just and um 1881 01:07:43,349 --> 01:07:41,920 i know people always say arms and legs 1882 01:07:44,950 --> 01:07:43,359 they're big things arms but you know 1883 01:07:47,510 --> 01:07:44,960 just a couple of fingers mary come on 1884 01:07:48,470 --> 01:07:47,520 you can do it well it would be the same 1885 01:07:50,390 --> 01:07:48,480 as 1886 01:07:52,470 --> 01:07:50,400 a miracle uh 1887 01:07:54,150 --> 01:07:52,480 getting rid of cancer yeah i mean well 1888 01:07:56,390 --> 01:07:54,160 it would be it would be exactly the same 1889 01:07:58,309 --> 01:07:56,400 kind of thing except the diagnosis for 1890 01:08:00,870 --> 01:07:58,319 cancer is a lot less certain the 1891 01:08:05,029 --> 01:08:03,109 is kind of fairly certain yeah you don't 1892 01:08:07,510 --> 01:08:05,039 need to be a doctor 1893 01:08:09,589 --> 01:08:07,520 so if mary machila killed her who gave 1894 01:08:12,390 --> 01:08:09,599 her cancer in the first place 1895 01:08:15,910 --> 01:08:14,150 satan i don't know it might have had 1896 01:08:18,149 --> 01:08:15,920 something to do with the fact that she 1897 01:08:19,910 --> 01:08:18,159 smoked cigarettes her entire life maybe 1898 01:08:22,149 --> 01:08:19,920 did she take yes 1899 01:08:23,829 --> 01:08:22,159 she was ever she said three years before 1900 01:08:27,269 --> 01:08:23,839 she was diagnosed and 1901 01:08:29,349 --> 01:08:27,279 you know oh yeah i i'm very um 1902 01:08:31,030 --> 01:08:29,359 um 1903 01:08:33,110 --> 01:08:31,040 i just i really do feel the people who 1904 01:08:35,510 --> 01:08:33,120 put as i've said before people who put 1905 01:08:38,550 --> 01:08:35,520 themselves in this position of claiming 1906 01:08:40,470 --> 01:08:38,560 a miracle cure i think really put 1907 01:08:41,910 --> 01:08:40,480 themselves in a position where they 1908 01:08:44,070 --> 01:08:41,920 should be disclosing 1909 01:08:46,870 --> 01:08:44,080 at the very least the medical records 1910 01:08:48,630 --> 01:08:46,880 surrounding the supposed cure to 1911 01:08:50,390 --> 01:08:48,640 the public because 1912 01:08:51,990 --> 01:08:50,400 you know i'm a strong believer in the 1913 01:08:53,510 --> 01:08:52,000 entitlement to privacy of medical 1914 01:08:55,829 --> 01:08:53,520 records being a 1915 01:08:57,269 --> 01:08:55,839 a health professional but i think that 1916 01:09:00,390 --> 01:08:57,279 if you're going to stand up there and 1917 01:09:02,550 --> 01:09:00,400 say and i wonder why she's now choosing 1918 01:09:04,550 --> 01:09:02,560 to chosen to identify herself after all 1919 01:09:05,510 --> 01:09:04,560 this time 1920 01:09:07,110 --> 01:09:05,520 then 1921 01:09:09,749 --> 01:09:07,120 you are claiming something that you're 1922 01:09:12,309 --> 01:09:09,759 giving other people hope for so you 1923 01:09:13,990 --> 01:09:12,319 should be at some level you know laying 1924 01:09:15,910 --> 01:09:14,000 everything out on the table and really 1925 01:09:17,910 --> 01:09:15,920 saying you know you'll tell me why i'll 1926 01:09:20,149 --> 01:09:17,920 tell you why i don't think it matters 1927 01:09:21,590 --> 01:09:20,159 because this is probably right because 1928 01:09:23,030 --> 01:09:21,600 it's 1929 01:09:25,430 --> 01:09:23,040 i have no difference no it doesn't 1930 01:09:26,229 --> 01:09:25,440 matter because because no it's 1931 01:09:27,590 --> 01:09:26,239 there's 1932 01:09:31,110 --> 01:09:27,600 important points about why it doesn't 1933 01:09:33,990 --> 01:09:31,120 matter but you can later edit out if you 1934 01:09:36,070 --> 01:09:34,000 one is that this is catholics i mean 1935 01:09:38,309 --> 01:09:36,080 none of us here is going to 1936 01:09:39,510 --> 01:09:38,319 you know believe that mary michael can 1937 01:09:41,030 --> 01:09:39,520 do anything 1938 01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:41,040 better or worse 1939 01:09:46,390 --> 01:09:44,400 now that she's going to be sane but also 1940 01:09:48,550 --> 01:09:46,400 anybody who believes in this priority 1941 01:09:50,709 --> 01:09:48,560 will also accept the process that the 1942 01:09:52,870 --> 01:09:50,719 catholic church has followed which is 1943 01:09:54,950 --> 01:09:52,880 which involves basically assessing the 1944 01:09:56,709 --> 01:09:54,960 evidence and basically and concluding to 1945 01:09:57,750 --> 01:09:56,719 assume to a fairly high level of 1946 01:09:59,830 --> 01:09:57,760 certainty 1947 01:10:02,229 --> 01:09:59,840 which i accept by the way that it's 1948 01:10:04,310 --> 01:10:02,239 unlikely to be explained by medicine the 1949 01:10:06,149 --> 01:10:04,320 thing is so what if it can't be 1950 01:10:08,149 --> 01:10:06,159 explained by medicine yeah that's the 1951 01:10:11,590 --> 01:10:08,159 main question too we may as well get 1952 01:10:13,189 --> 01:10:11,600 some bloody converts for god 1953 01:10:14,630 --> 01:10:13,199 yeah but it's the same as saying well i 1954 01:10:16,709 --> 01:10:14,640 don't know what that thing is in the sky 1955 01:10:18,149 --> 01:10:16,719 so it's an alien yeah it's absolutely 1956 01:10:20,470 --> 01:10:18,159 it's just feeling the gas filling in the 1957 01:10:22,630 --> 01:10:20,480 glass and yeah that's right yeah but you 1958 01:10:24,310 --> 01:10:22,640 know i would have believed it that you 1959 01:10:26,310 --> 01:10:24,320 know the people who could have believed 1960 01:10:28,830 --> 01:10:26,320 in superstitions would just fill in the 1961 01:10:31,350 --> 01:10:28,840 gaps with their favorite person 1962 01:10:32,870 --> 01:10:31,360 yeah never happened before but you did 1963 01:10:34,790 --> 01:10:32,880 some research for this because you did 1964 01:10:36,390 --> 01:10:34,800 an interview on radio here before 1965 01:10:38,550 --> 01:10:36,400 christmas now you know a little bit 1966 01:10:39,990 --> 01:10:38,560 about the process that the church goes 1967 01:10:41,110 --> 01:10:40,000 through to assess the evidence can you 1968 01:10:43,910 --> 01:10:41,120 tell us a little bit about that well 1969 01:10:45,750 --> 01:10:43,920 they took five um they they call it 1970 01:10:47,110 --> 01:10:45,760 treating physicians which is not 1971 01:10:49,350 --> 01:10:47,120 entirely clear whether there were the 1972 01:10:51,430 --> 01:10:49,360 physicians who treated her in which case 1973 01:10:53,030 --> 01:10:51,440 the problem would be obviously that they 1974 01:10:54,870 --> 01:10:53,040 have some vested interest in not saying 1975 01:10:56,470 --> 01:10:54,880 well for me so we misdiagnosed the poor 1976 01:10:58,390 --> 01:10:56,480 woman 1977 01:11:01,510 --> 01:10:58,400 or whether they're just people who treat 1978 01:11:03,669 --> 01:11:01,520 this kind of um of case 1979 01:11:06,070 --> 01:11:03,679 um they said they looked through the the 1980 01:11:07,750 --> 01:11:06,080 files her uh file so they would probably 1981 01:11:08,950 --> 01:11:07,760 should the files will probably hand it 1982 01:11:11,350 --> 01:11:08,960 to the church 1983 01:11:13,270 --> 01:11:11,360 so there was cooperation from from this 1984 01:11:15,030 --> 01:11:13,280 woman what's her name um 1985 01:11:16,470 --> 01:11:15,040 kathleen evans 1986 01:11:18,070 --> 01:11:16,480 so um 1987 01:11:20,070 --> 01:11:18,080 so there was some investigation there 1988 01:11:21,990 --> 01:11:20,080 but basically the information the quotes 1989 01:11:24,070 --> 01:11:22,000 that i read from these doctors which 1990 01:11:25,669 --> 01:11:24,080 were not named by the way was all around 1991 01:11:27,030 --> 01:11:25,679 like they've never we've never seen 1992 01:11:28,950 --> 01:11:27,040 anything like this before we can't 1993 01:11:30,149 --> 01:11:28,960 explain it um 1994 01:11:33,270 --> 01:11:30,159 um 1995 01:11:34,790 --> 01:11:33,280 this uh science can't explain it it was 1996 01:11:36,470 --> 01:11:34,800 all around the gap you know there was 1997 01:11:37,990 --> 01:11:36,480 like basically you can't we can't 1998 01:11:39,830 --> 01:11:38,000 explain it we have never seen anything 1999 01:11:41,430 --> 01:11:39,840 like this before and one of the things i 2000 01:11:43,110 --> 01:11:41,440 actually said on the interview is 2001 01:11:44,709 --> 01:11:43,120 what if it is the first let's say it's 2002 01:11:46,149 --> 01:11:44,719 the first case in history okay not just 2003 01:11:47,430 --> 01:11:46,159 the first case known to these doctors 2004 01:11:48,470 --> 01:11:47,440 let's say it's the very first case in 2005 01:11:49,590 --> 01:11:48,480 history 2006 01:11:51,110 --> 01:11:49,600 so what 2007 01:11:52,790 --> 01:11:51,120 it still doesn't make it a miracle it 2008 01:11:54,950 --> 01:11:52,800 just makes it extremely unlikely but 2009 01:11:56,149 --> 01:11:54,960 unlikely things happen all the time 2010 01:11:57,430 --> 01:11:56,159 you know there's six billion people on 2011 01:11:59,110 --> 01:11:57,440 it but the other thing is also you know 2012 01:12:00,709 --> 01:11:59,120 to sit there and say 2013 01:12:02,070 --> 01:12:00,719 um 2014 01:12:04,149 --> 01:12:02,080 to start from the position of we've 2015 01:12:06,229 --> 01:12:04,159 never seen anything like this before are 2016 01:12:09,110 --> 01:12:06,239 they taking that position 2017 01:12:11,270 --> 01:12:09,120 based on the supposition that her 2018 01:12:13,270 --> 01:12:11,280 diagnosis was correct 2019 01:12:14,709 --> 01:12:13,280 or are they and we haven't heard from 2020 01:12:17,910 --> 01:12:14,719 them have we haven't 2021 01:12:20,229 --> 01:12:17,920 heard from the treating physicians 2022 01:12:22,870 --> 01:12:20,239 what we have what we have are 2023 01:12:24,790 --> 01:12:22,880 anonymous quotes from these doctors and 2024 01:12:26,630 --> 01:12:24,800 now the interview with 2025 01:12:28,790 --> 01:12:26,640 kathleen evans herself yeah obviously 2026 01:12:30,229 --> 01:12:28,800 we're i'm sure everybody is very pleased 2027 01:12:31,830 --> 01:12:30,239 that she is actually healthy so that 2028 01:12:34,550 --> 01:12:31,840 that's that's great news 2029 01:12:35,990 --> 01:12:34,560 the thing is why attribute it to mary 2030 01:12:37,510 --> 01:12:36,000 mcphillip and why attributed to a 2031 01:12:39,110 --> 01:12:37,520 miracle also so 2032 01:12:40,550 --> 01:12:39,120 you're a bit jet-lagged aren't you i am 2033 01:12:42,550 --> 01:12:40,560 a bit jet-lagged another a very 2034 01:12:44,149 --> 01:12:42,560 interesting story and i will be uh 2035 01:12:46,470 --> 01:12:44,159 speaking about this a little bit more on 2036 01:12:48,950 --> 01:12:46,480 sgu coming up oh yes you will oh yeah 2037 01:12:50,310 --> 01:12:48,960 excellent and i i notice on my my 2038 01:12:52,470 --> 01:12:50,320 reading glasses case here i've got a 2039 01:12:54,149 --> 01:12:52,480 skeptic's guide to the universe sticker 2040 01:12:56,070 --> 01:12:54,159 and iran is wearing a skeptic's guide to 2041 01:12:57,590 --> 01:12:56,080 the universe t-shirt with the same logo 2042 01:12:59,350 --> 01:12:57,600 with the same logo we're with you guys 2043 01:13:01,270 --> 01:12:59,360 we're with you all the way 2044 01:13:02,709 --> 01:13:01,280 do you want to talk about more miracles 2045 01:13:04,790 --> 01:13:02,719 oh you got another miracle for us we 2046 01:13:06,870 --> 01:13:04,800 have we've got another miracle cure this 2047 01:13:08,390 --> 01:13:06,880 time miracles all around miracles all 2048 01:13:11,750 --> 01:13:08,400 around today 2049 01:13:13,669 --> 01:13:11,760 uh it's um this is a story that broke in 2050 01:13:16,310 --> 01:13:13,679 australia on the weekend 2051 01:13:20,390 --> 01:13:16,320 and it's about a woman who 2052 01:13:23,830 --> 01:13:20,400 passed away after taking a magic miracle 2053 01:13:26,070 --> 01:13:23,840 cure oh yes called mms or miracle 2054 01:13:27,990 --> 01:13:26,080 mineral solution 2055 01:13:29,510 --> 01:13:28,000 and it's marketed as one of those cural 2056 01:13:33,149 --> 01:13:29,520 so if you go to the website it cures 2057 01:13:36,470 --> 01:13:33,159 aids cancers 60 types of cancers malaria 2058 01:13:38,149 --> 01:13:36,480 tuberculosis you name it it cures it all 2059 01:13:39,910 --> 01:13:38,159 um it's an invention you're advanced 2060 01:13:41,830 --> 01:13:39,920 cancers as well 2061 01:13:44,070 --> 01:13:41,840 just kidding it's uh 2062 01:13:51,590 --> 01:13:44,080 mary mckellip has that one i don't know 2063 01:13:55,830 --> 01:13:52,950 but she hadn't taught any of her 2064 01:13:56,550 --> 01:13:55,840 acolytes how to cure her so she could 2065 01:13:58,070 --> 01:13:56,560 not 2066 01:14:01,990 --> 01:13:58,080 oh so she didn't have a cure for 2067 01:14:06,709 --> 01:14:04,070 this this guy is an american he's 2068 01:14:08,310 --> 01:14:06,719 invented this stuff mms his name's 2069 01:14:09,350 --> 01:14:08,320 jim humble 2070 01:14:21,830 --> 01:14:09,360 now 2071 01:14:26,310 --> 01:14:23,830 it's chlorine dioxide which is a form of 2072 01:14:28,149 --> 01:14:26,320 bleach but i think everyone here would 2073 01:14:29,830 --> 01:14:28,159 be familiar with sort of the seven signs 2074 01:14:33,110 --> 01:14:29,840 of pseudoscience right 2075 01:14:34,550 --> 01:14:33,120 you know if if someone claims that um 2076 01:14:36,149 --> 01:14:34,560 if they've discovered it themselves 2077 01:14:37,990 --> 01:14:36,159 without anyone else being around if 2078 01:14:39,990 --> 01:14:38,000 they've walked out of a forest and it's 2079 01:14:42,390 --> 01:14:40,000 been you know only just released by the 2080 01:14:44,229 --> 01:14:42,400 himalayan indigenous people don't want 2081 01:14:45,430 --> 01:14:44,239 to tell you about it yeah it's what 2082 01:14:47,510 --> 01:14:45,440 you've got your doctor doesn't want you 2083 01:14:49,990 --> 01:14:47,520 to find it the mind body wallet and 2084 01:14:51,750 --> 01:14:50,000 cures pretty much anything all right so 2085 01:14:53,510 --> 01:14:51,760 here's some stuff i got from his website 2086 01:14:55,910 --> 01:14:53,520 see if you can spot any of those signs 2087 01:14:58,790 --> 01:14:55,920 of pseudoscience okay so if if you hear 2088 01:15:00,950 --> 01:14:59,750 okay 2089 01:15:03,750 --> 01:15:00,960 so 2090 01:15:06,709 --> 01:15:03,760 a 2007 promotional 2091 01:15:08,390 --> 01:15:06,719 flyer that he released said quote this 2092 01:15:10,310 --> 01:15:08,400 man heroically stepped out of the 2093 01:15:12,630 --> 01:15:10,320 shadows to make this information and 2094 01:15:17,510 --> 01:15:12,640 natural solution freely available to all 2095 01:15:22,550 --> 01:15:20,630 mms is a breakthrough that can save your 2096 01:15:25,910 --> 01:15:22,560 life 2097 01:15:34,390 --> 01:15:29,189 the answer to aids hepatitis a b and c 2098 01:15:38,070 --> 01:15:36,149 and many more of mankind's worst 2099 01:15:40,550 --> 01:15:38,080 diseases 2100 01:15:42,470 --> 01:15:40,560 here's another one for example 2101 01:15:44,550 --> 01:15:42,480 humble claims that the availability of 2102 01:15:48,870 --> 01:15:44,560 mms could soon be threatened by the 2103 01:16:01,750 --> 01:15:50,310 that's not the thing that's you know 2104 01:16:05,510 --> 01:16:04,310 as you mentioned iran it is bleach 2105 01:16:07,669 --> 01:16:05,520 and 2106 01:16:09,270 --> 01:16:07,679 um what you're supposed to do with it is 2107 01:16:10,870 --> 01:16:09,280 you're supposed to take 2108 01:16:12,470 --> 01:16:10,880 a certain number of drops of it and put 2109 01:16:14,229 --> 01:16:12,480 it into some sort of 2110 01:16:16,790 --> 01:16:14,239 acid solution like 2111 01:16:18,709 --> 01:16:16,800 um not not highly acidic say something 2112 01:16:21,110 --> 01:16:18,719 like lemon juice or lime juice 2113 01:16:22,070 --> 01:16:21,120 and then you drink it now this woman 2114 01:16:24,310 --> 01:16:22,080 um 2115 01:16:26,390 --> 01:16:24,320 passed away about 12 hours after taking 2116 01:16:28,229 --> 01:16:26,400 the drug this doesn't necessarily mean 2117 01:16:30,709 --> 01:16:28,239 the drug killed her but i'll just tell 2118 01:16:33,510 --> 01:16:30,719 you about the sort of um her illness and 2119 01:16:34,790 --> 01:16:33,520 how it and the circumstances so 2120 01:16:35,590 --> 01:16:34,800 um 2121 01:16:39,189 --> 01:16:35,600 she 2122 01:16:40,790 --> 01:16:39,199 mixed the mms with lime juice and then 2123 01:16:43,189 --> 01:16:40,800 shortly after she became sick with 2124 01:16:44,470 --> 01:16:43,199 vomiting and diarrhea 2125 01:16:46,310 --> 01:16:44,480 her husband was trying to keep her 2126 01:16:48,790 --> 01:16:46,320 dehydrated but she couldn't keep any 2127 01:16:51,189 --> 01:16:48,800 fluids down sorry hydrated and but she 2128 01:16:53,510 --> 01:16:51,199 couldn't keep any fluids down and then 2129 01:16:54,950 --> 01:16:53,520 after this she fell into a coma and 12 2130 01:16:57,430 --> 01:16:54,960 hours after taking the drug she couldn't 2131 01:16:59,830 --> 01:16:57,440 be revived and she was dead 2132 01:17:01,510 --> 01:16:59,840 now just for clarification though the 2133 01:17:03,910 --> 01:17:01,520 the reason that this happened in the way 2134 01:17:05,590 --> 01:17:03,920 that it was they were actually on a boat 2135 01:17:07,669 --> 01:17:05,600 barely in the middle of nowhere new 2136 01:17:08,790 --> 01:17:07,679 guinea but yeah off the coast 2137 01:17:11,189 --> 01:17:08,800 yeah they weren't they weren't they 2138 01:17:13,270 --> 01:17:11,199 weren't you know access they didn't have 2139 01:17:15,270 --> 01:17:13,280 good medical care easily accessible that 2140 01:17:17,189 --> 01:17:15,280 is true but then he didn't initially 2141 01:17:18,950 --> 01:17:17,199 call for anyone because he just thought 2142 01:17:21,830 --> 01:17:18,960 she had vomiting and diarrhea and it 2143 01:17:23,669 --> 01:17:21,840 wasn't until she started to to faint 2144 01:17:25,830 --> 01:17:23,679 that he then called for other boats in 2145 01:17:27,669 --> 01:17:25,840 the area to come and help they did come 2146 01:17:30,229 --> 01:17:27,679 and then someone from the village a 2147 01:17:31,510 --> 01:17:30,239 medical practitioner or i mean a doctor 2148 01:17:34,550 --> 01:17:31,520 because that could mean anything these 2149 01:17:37,830 --> 01:17:34,560 days yeah a doctor of medicine 2150 01:17:39,750 --> 01:17:37,840 came um sort of i think between 9 and 12 2151 01:17:41,350 --> 01:17:39,760 hours after she felt fallen ill but that 2152 01:17:43,030 --> 01:17:41,360 was it was too late 2153 01:17:45,510 --> 01:17:43,040 bleach huh yeah 2154 01:17:47,270 --> 01:17:45,520 yeah so um in in australia this stuff 2155 01:17:49,189 --> 01:17:47,280 has actually caused problems before um 2156 01:17:52,709 --> 01:17:49,199 the new south wales department of health 2157 01:17:55,030 --> 01:17:52,719 said that last year in 2009 2158 01:17:56,790 --> 01:17:55,040 six people in new south wales suffered 2159 01:17:59,030 --> 01:17:56,800 adverse reactions to the drug and three 2160 01:18:00,550 --> 01:17:59,040 were admitted to hospital 2161 01:18:02,070 --> 01:18:00,560 and there's also if you do a google 2162 01:18:03,750 --> 01:18:02,080 search you'll find there are websites 2163 01:18:05,669 --> 01:18:03,760 that are dedicated to reporting the side 2164 01:18:08,070 --> 01:18:05,679 effects from taking this stuff 2165 01:18:12,790 --> 01:18:08,080 so i don't think it's that benign 2166 01:18:13,990 --> 01:18:12,800 um on top of that in july 2019 2167 01:18:15,590 --> 01:18:14,000 probably and other bits of your 2168 01:18:17,510 --> 01:18:15,600 intestines so i have to go through it 2169 01:18:19,510 --> 01:18:17,520 because it's marketed as a 2170 01:18:20,870 --> 01:18:19,520 like a medicine doesn't it have to go 2171 01:18:21,830 --> 01:18:20,880 through the proper channels before they 2172 01:18:23,910 --> 01:18:21,840 can 2173 01:18:26,310 --> 01:18:23,920 sell that stuff 2174 01:18:29,270 --> 01:18:26,320 no because it's not actually listed in 2175 01:18:31,990 --> 01:18:29,280 australia oh i see so i think the bottom 2176 01:18:35,030 --> 01:18:32,000 line you buy it online as far as i know 2177 01:18:36,470 --> 01:18:35,040 however last year in july 2178 01:18:39,110 --> 01:18:36,480 there was a complaint made about an 2179 01:18:41,910 --> 01:18:39,120 advertisement for it in nexus magazine i 2180 01:18:42,790 --> 01:18:41,920 think it was nexus magazine and the tga 2181 01:18:44,470 --> 01:18:42,800 did 2182 01:18:45,990 --> 01:18:44,480 examine that case and issued an order 2183 01:18:48,390 --> 01:18:46,000 for the um 2184 01:18:50,870 --> 01:18:48,400 the advertisement to be retracted but 2185 01:18:52,950 --> 01:18:50,880 so what you know people can still buy it 2186 01:18:54,870 --> 01:18:52,960 so 2187 01:18:56,550 --> 01:18:54,880 we don't know what's caused the death of 2188 01:18:58,790 --> 01:18:56,560 this lady at the moment the autopsy 2189 01:19:01,669 --> 01:18:58,800 results have yet to be released but um 2190 01:19:03,270 --> 01:19:01,679 and toxicology as well i like the title 2191 01:19:07,030 --> 01:19:03,280 the little article you're reading here 2192 01:19:08,790 --> 01:19:07,040 mysterious death um after taking miracle 2193 01:19:10,630 --> 01:19:08,800 cure there's that word again well that's 2194 01:19:12,229 --> 01:19:10,640 what it's happening it's actually called 2195 01:19:14,149 --> 01:19:12,239 miracles well it's called miracle 2196 01:19:15,910 --> 01:19:14,159 mineral situation it's amazing that word 2197 01:19:17,830 --> 01:19:15,920 is just thrown about so lightly these 2198 01:19:19,910 --> 01:19:17,840 yeah isn't it 2199 01:19:21,750 --> 01:19:19,920 so um yeah we'll we'll wait with 2200 01:19:22,790 --> 01:19:21,760 interest to see what actually the 2201 01:19:25,510 --> 01:19:22,800 interesting thing about it was that her 2202 01:19:28,470 --> 01:19:25,520 husband actually um 2203 01:19:30,310 --> 01:19:28,480 is a scientist he is and he actually 2204 01:19:31,350 --> 01:19:30,320 didn't want her to take it 2205 01:19:32,470 --> 01:19:31,360 but he 2206 01:19:33,910 --> 01:19:32,480 well this is what he was quoted as 2207 01:19:36,229 --> 01:19:33,920 saying that he didn't want to take it 2208 01:19:39,030 --> 01:19:36,239 but that he felt that she was an adult 2209 01:19:40,630 --> 01:19:39,040 and could make her own decisions and he 2210 01:19:41,830 --> 01:19:40,640 you know went along with what his wife 2211 01:19:43,990 --> 01:19:41,840 chose to do 2212 01:19:45,669 --> 01:19:44,000 we should be just to work probably one 2213 01:19:47,669 --> 01:19:45,679 little word of caution and that is that 2214 01:19:49,270 --> 01:19:47,679 the autopsy results despite the fact 2215 01:19:50,390 --> 01:19:49,280 that it's been several months haven't 2216 01:19:52,790 --> 01:19:50,400 been 2217 01:19:55,590 --> 01:19:52,800 released yet so we don't know for sure 2218 01:19:57,110 --> 01:19:55,600 that that's the cause of death 2219 01:19:59,030 --> 01:19:57,120 and i didn't say that i'm not saying 2220 01:20:00,470 --> 01:19:59,040 that it caused 2221 01:20:02,950 --> 01:20:00,480 nevertheless no nevertheless 2222 01:20:04,630 --> 01:20:02,960 nevertheless um it's interesting to just 2223 01:20:08,390 --> 01:20:04,640 have a look at some of the claims made 2224 01:20:10,630 --> 01:20:08,400 by absolutely ding ding ding yeah 2225 01:20:13,030 --> 01:20:10,640 now another reason we we must say ding 2226 01:20:14,470 --> 01:20:13,040 ding ding ding a ring ding is something 2227 01:20:23,830 --> 01:20:14,480 iran has come along yeah well it's 2228 01:20:28,790 --> 01:20:25,270 americans 2229 01:20:30,830 --> 01:20:28,800 859 returned flight so it's not it's 859 2230 01:20:33,590 --> 01:20:30,840 australian so qantas 2231 01:20:35,310 --> 01:20:33,600 is round-trip flights from la and san 2232 01:20:37,510 --> 01:20:35,320 francisco for 2233 01:20:41,030 --> 01:20:37,520 798 us 2234 01:20:43,590 --> 01:20:41,040 and from new york for 998 us 2235 01:20:45,830 --> 01:20:43,600 this is officially a call 2236 01:20:48,310 --> 01:20:45,840 to all of our friends in the us who are 2237 01:20:49,590 --> 01:20:48,320 going to come to um town australia in 2238 01:20:51,189 --> 01:20:49,600 november 2239 01:20:52,630 --> 01:20:51,199 i don't know whether this is still it 2240 01:20:54,790 --> 01:20:52,640 doesn't say here 2241 01:20:55,830 --> 01:20:54,800 um how long this is going to be valid 2242 01:20:57,270 --> 01:20:55,840 for but 2243 01:20:58,950 --> 01:20:57,280 get your tickets get your ticket get 2244 01:21:00,709 --> 01:20:58,960 your tickets now if you can 2245 01:21:02,870 --> 01:21:00,719 maybe through the wild um because they 2246 01:21:05,350 --> 01:21:02,880 were talking today about um you know 2247 01:21:07,590 --> 01:21:05,360 some extensive promotions for visits to 2248 01:21:09,430 --> 01:21:07,600 australia at the moment with the g'day 2249 01:21:11,590 --> 01:21:09,440 australia campaign that people probably 2250 01:21:13,350 --> 01:21:11,600 may well have seen in america so 2251 01:21:15,910 --> 01:21:13,360 they should really yeah keep their eyes 2252 01:21:18,550 --> 01:21:15,920 open so check qantas.com that would be 2253 01:21:20,750 --> 01:21:18,560 the best option around and see when 2254 01:21:22,470 --> 01:21:20,760 because often when this is spelled 2255 01:21:23,350 --> 01:21:22,480 q-a-n-t-a-s 2256 01:21:25,590 --> 01:21:23,360 um 2257 01:21:26,950 --> 01:21:25,600 a democratic senator from the state of 2258 01:21:28,870 --> 01:21:26,960 maine in the u.s 2259 01:21:31,669 --> 01:21:28,880 i forgot her name i don't have it here 2260 01:21:33,590 --> 01:21:31,679 but um she wants warning labels put on 2261 01:21:35,990 --> 01:21:33,600 cell phones 2262 01:21:37,910 --> 01:21:36,000 the point is that there's a risk and 2263 01:21:39,669 --> 01:21:37,920 while there's no scientific evidence for 2264 01:21:41,510 --> 01:21:39,679 the risk and the world health 2265 01:21:44,790 --> 01:21:41,520 organization study 2266 01:21:46,070 --> 01:21:44,800 from uh 2005 with it because they've 2267 01:21:48,470 --> 01:21:46,080 done a very large the world health 2268 01:21:50,630 --> 01:21:48,480 organization did a very large study 2269 01:21:52,870 --> 01:21:50,640 i'm not sure why but the results have 2270 01:21:54,709 --> 01:21:52,880 not been officially published 2271 01:21:55,750 --> 01:21:54,719 and that which is which is interesting i 2272 01:21:56,709 --> 01:21:55,760 haven't been able to find any 2273 01:21:58,070 --> 01:21:56,719 information 2274 01:21:59,270 --> 01:21:58,080 as to why the results haven't been 2275 01:22:01,270 --> 01:21:59,280 published but 2276 01:22:02,870 --> 01:22:01,280 what has leaked was that there was no 2277 01:22:04,550 --> 01:22:02,880 there was nothing it wasn't showing any 2278 01:22:06,629 --> 01:22:04,560 any effect 2279 01:22:08,229 --> 01:22:06,639 i know there have been some 2280 01:22:10,149 --> 01:22:08,239 brain surgeons who have claimed that 2281 01:22:11,910 --> 01:22:10,159 they'd seen a rise in certain types of 2282 01:22:14,149 --> 01:22:11,920 cancer that could be attributed to the 2283 01:22:16,470 --> 01:22:14,159 use of phone in the sense of their their 2284 01:22:18,310 --> 01:22:16,480 location but any any proper properly 2285 01:22:20,390 --> 01:22:18,320 done 2286 01:22:23,830 --> 01:22:20,400 epidemiological study has shown that 2287 01:22:25,430 --> 01:22:23,840 there is no that there is no 2288 01:22:27,590 --> 01:22:25,440 um so 2289 01:22:28,550 --> 01:22:27,600 obviously this is just some a political 2290 01:22:31,189 --> 01:22:28,560 stunt 2291 01:22:33,669 --> 01:22:31,199 but the the strange thing is how the 2292 01:22:35,669 --> 01:22:33,679 cell phone companies have responded they 2293 01:22:37,669 --> 01:22:35,679 don't appear too eager 2294 01:22:39,590 --> 01:22:37,679 to block that move 2295 01:22:41,110 --> 01:22:39,600 so they've been coming out with covering 2296 01:22:42,950 --> 01:22:41,120 them they're not they're not they're 2297 01:22:45,110 --> 01:22:42,960 kind of this they're saying kind of 2298 01:22:46,790 --> 01:22:45,120 things like you know they're being very 2299 01:22:49,189 --> 01:22:46,800 soft about it they're saying like look 2300 01:22:50,550 --> 01:22:49,199 there's no evidence and and there's no 2301 01:22:51,510 --> 01:22:50,560 reason you know it's not the only thing 2302 01:22:52,950 --> 01:22:51,520 that 2303 01:22:54,870 --> 01:22:52,960 for which there's risk and they're 2304 01:22:56,310 --> 01:22:54,880 absolutely right of course but the fact 2305 01:22:57,430 --> 01:22:56,320 remains that there is absolutely no 2306 01:22:58,629 --> 01:22:57,440 evidence 2307 01:23:00,550 --> 01:22:58,639 in addition to the fact that there's no 2308 01:23:02,550 --> 01:23:00,560 evidence there's really no 2309 01:23:04,629 --> 01:23:02,560 known mechanism by which it could work 2310 01:23:07,189 --> 01:23:04,639 because it's not it's not ionizing 2311 01:23:08,709 --> 01:23:07,199 radiation and it's very low 2312 01:23:10,550 --> 01:23:08,719 um 2313 01:23:12,629 --> 01:23:10,560 power radiation so 2314 01:23:14,470 --> 01:23:12,639 it doesn't mean it's impossible it just 2315 01:23:17,830 --> 01:23:14,480 we don't know of a mechanism that could 2316 01:23:22,790 --> 01:23:20,470 a couple of issues ago on on 2317 01:23:24,149 --> 01:23:22,800 uh explaining why 2318 01:23:25,910 --> 01:23:24,159 you know 2319 01:23:27,990 --> 01:23:25,920 it's all well and good to jump up and 2320 01:23:29,350 --> 01:23:28,000 down and say there are these risks but 2321 01:23:31,830 --> 01:23:29,360 you have to really have an understanding 2322 01:23:33,669 --> 01:23:31,840 of why those risks are so unlikely which 2323 01:23:36,229 --> 01:23:33,679 is exactly that the the lack of 2324 01:23:38,629 --> 01:23:36,239 mechanism for it working and i mean you 2325 01:23:42,390 --> 01:23:38,639 know i i found it very interesting and 2326 01:23:43,990 --> 01:23:42,400 useful actually to to read how the 2327 01:23:44,870 --> 01:23:44,000 different types of radiation work and 2328 01:23:46,790 --> 01:23:44,880 why 2329 01:23:49,510 --> 01:23:46,800 a cell phone causing cancer with that 2330 01:23:50,390 --> 01:23:49,520 type of radiation is highly unlikely so 2331 01:23:52,310 --> 01:23:50,400 you know 2332 01:23:53,990 --> 01:23:52,320 of course highly unlikely is the right 2333 01:23:55,510 --> 01:23:54,000 term but it doesn't mean it's impossible 2334 01:23:57,189 --> 01:23:55,520 but it's highly unlikely to put a 2335 01:23:58,629 --> 01:23:57,199 warning label i mean 2336 01:24:14,629 --> 01:23:58,639 in the same way you could put warnings 2337 01:24:14,639 --> 01:24:28,390 lemons 2338 01:24:32,629 --> 01:24:31,430 i was rollerblading yesterday 2339 01:24:41,669 --> 01:24:32,639 well we'll wait for the announcement 2340 01:24:41,679 --> 01:24:47,030 the last part 2341 01:24:50,229 --> 01:24:48,390 sorry now what's this happening well i 2342 01:24:51,669 --> 01:24:50,239 live in olympic park and i i go 2343 01:24:54,149 --> 01:24:51,679 rollerblading quite often and there's a 2344 01:24:56,310 --> 01:24:54,159 little bit of wildlife around but 2345 01:24:58,310 --> 01:24:56,320 so i was rollerblading the other day and 2346 01:25:01,669 --> 01:24:58,320 i'm not going that fast but i got hit by 2347 01:25:04,790 --> 01:25:03,990 a rabbit ran me over 2348 01:25:32,550 --> 01:25:04,800 i 2349 01:25:34,950 --> 01:25:32,560 a small 2350 01:25:37,270 --> 01:25:34,960 highly highly highly toxic 2351 01:25:40,229 --> 01:25:37,280 what is it like a jellyfish 2352 01:25:42,629 --> 01:25:40,239 hit him in the face i think oh and he 2353 01:25:44,709 --> 01:25:42,639 yeah got stung so he's transported to 2354 01:25:47,030 --> 01:25:44,719 hospital in agony i'm pleased to say 2355 01:25:48,709 --> 01:25:47,040 that the skeptic zone does not carry a 2356 01:25:52,790 --> 01:25:48,719 warning label 2357 01:25:56,229 --> 01:25:54,470 i'd like to thank um 2358 01:25:58,790 --> 01:25:56,239 iran 2359 01:26:00,629 --> 01:25:58,800 joanne and dr rachie for joining me once 2360 01:26:03,350 --> 01:26:00,639 again in the think tank and here's to 2361 01:26:08,390 --> 01:26:03,360 the next one cheers everybody 2362 01:26:08,400 --> 01:26:33,590 rabbit 2363 01:26:37,189 --> 01:26:35,430 richard if that's the way the new year 2364 01:26:40,070 --> 01:26:37,199 is going to be for the rest of the year 2365 01:26:42,070 --> 01:26:40,080 i'm in and i'm on and i'm going for it 2366 01:26:43,669 --> 01:26:42,080 you're in the zone i'm in the zone 2367 01:26:46,629 --> 01:26:43,679 i'm in the zone it's good it's like 2368 01:26:48,149 --> 01:26:46,639 we're going to put 2010 in a bottle yes 2369 01:26:49,350 --> 01:26:48,159 yeah we'll keep it there and we'll go 2370 01:26:51,189 --> 01:26:49,360 back all the time because it's going to 2371 01:26:53,030 --> 01:26:51,199 be so good at any stage at all and then 2372 01:26:54,629 --> 01:26:53,040 we'll even turn it upside down and the 2373 01:26:55,990 --> 01:26:54,639 sands will go back through the hourglass 2374 01:26:57,430 --> 01:26:56,000 the other way the other way and we'll 2375 01:26:59,669 --> 01:26:57,440 leave it all backwards 2376 01:27:01,189 --> 01:26:59,679 i want to do that 2377 01:27:02,390 --> 01:27:01,199 now what a great time i had with brian 2378 01:27:05,430 --> 01:27:02,400 dunning walking around looking at all 2379 01:27:07,750 --> 01:27:05,440 those mastodons and uh wolf skulls and 2380 01:27:09,030 --> 01:27:07,760 the tar the sticky tar everywhere can 2381 01:27:11,110 --> 01:27:09,040 you imagine how difficult that would 2382 01:27:12,950 --> 01:27:11,120 have been for god to actually do all 2383 01:27:14,470 --> 01:27:12,960 that yeah to trick us into thinking that 2384 01:27:16,629 --> 01:27:14,480 there are actual dinosaurs that were 2385 01:27:18,390 --> 01:27:16,639 that existed before he actually created 2386 01:27:20,149 --> 01:27:18,400 the dinosaurs died out a long time 2387 01:27:21,830 --> 01:27:20,159 before the the animals in the in the um 2388 01:27:23,910 --> 01:27:21,840 the tar pits but according to the 2389 01:27:25,110 --> 01:27:23,920 creationists yeah you must be right even 2390 01:27:26,550 --> 01:27:25,120 the animals in the tar pits couldn't 2391 01:27:28,229 --> 01:27:26,560 have existed 2392 01:27:31,189 --> 01:27:28,239 hundreds of thousands of years ago 2393 01:27:33,910 --> 01:27:31,199 exactly and to to actually do that i 2394 01:27:36,390 --> 01:27:33,920 mean what an amazing creator what a 2395 01:27:38,229 --> 01:27:36,400 sneaky god must be he's a sneaky guy 2396 01:27:40,310 --> 01:27:38,239 he's very he's a trickster i bet he 2397 01:27:41,990 --> 01:27:40,320 listens to the zone well he listens to 2398 01:27:43,830 --> 01:27:42,000 everything he does he does and for those 2399 01:27:45,990 --> 01:27:43,840 listeners listening in sydney are 2400 01:27:48,870 --> 01:27:46,000 actually around the world tomorrow night 2401 01:27:52,390 --> 01:27:48,880 being saturday the 16th yeah close 2402 01:27:53,990 --> 01:27:52,400 enough on radio 2gb here in sydney dr he 2403 01:27:56,229 --> 01:27:54,000 and i will be on talking about 2404 01:27:58,550 --> 01:27:56,239 predictions again again 2405 01:28:00,390 --> 01:27:58,560 that's what i predict 2406 01:28:02,310 --> 01:28:00,400 you will otherwise you'd be wrong well 2407 01:28:03,910 --> 01:28:02,320 that's great well we'll all tune into 2408 01:28:05,590 --> 01:28:03,920 that but uh thank you listeners once 2409 01:28:06,870 --> 01:28:05,600 again it's great to be back i've missed 2410 01:28:09,270 --> 01:28:06,880 it a little bit i've been a few weeks 2411 01:28:10,950 --> 01:28:09,280 away like i said my hiatus and the 2412 01:28:12,310 --> 01:28:10,960 operation all went well but we're back 2413 01:28:14,070 --> 01:28:12,320 for another year we're back for another 2414 01:28:17,669 --> 01:28:14,080 year we'll see you next week bye now see 2415 01:28:21,350 --> 01:28:19,350 you've been listening to the skeptic 2416 01:28:24,709 --> 01:28:21,360 zone visit our website at